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Looking for real world winter consumption values
- Thread starter Braumin
- Start date
Well after debating it all week, we decided to take the ICE SUV for the trip. Was likely the right call. There was a tail wind so I am 99.99% sure I would have made it but didn't need the stress, and the road conditions were poor so there was plenty of stress already.
Today I had to make a much shorter trip and it is currently -30°C. Round trip is about 120 km. With a tail wind I was averaging 260 Wh/km, and on the return journey into the wind (30 km/h) I averaged 320 Wh/km. Consumption is definitely very high even with a heat pump when it is really cold. Not a huge surprise of course. In the summer I would normally get about 170 Wh/km on the same trip.
Today I had to make a much shorter trip and it is currently -30°C. Round trip is about 120 km. With a tail wind I was averaging 260 Wh/km, and on the return journey into the wind (30 km/h) I averaged 320 Wh/km. Consumption is definitely very high even with a heat pump when it is really cold. Not a huge surprise of course. In the summer I would normally get about 170 Wh/km on the same trip.
you suddenly seem a lot more educated on EVs than your first post would imply. Are you saying that other manufacturers dont use the numbers that the epa tests yield, when publishing their ranges (under promise/over deliver?). Or are you saying that cold weather affects teslas range more adversely than other EVs? -21c is really cold and it wouldnt surprise me that it halves any EVs range. But I don‘t believe it’s worse for tesla than any other brand.
Not sure what you are getting at here. I do know plenty about EVs and was originally asking for real-world consumption from people because I had not owned my car during the winter yet and had a long road trip ahead of me. The Model 3 with a heat pump is a fairly new thing so going off of what someone posted about a 2018 Model 3 may not be accurate. Accuracy in data is somewhat critical when you are coming up against the upper limit of range with zero places to recharge.
If you want to discuss the EPA ratings sure I am happy to talk about those because they are garbage numbers. Tesla's numbers are the most egregious of them all because they use extra tests to inflate their range results, but never in your life will you ever hit those numbers. *Most* other EVs will be much closer to their *rated* range than a Tesla, even if the Tesla is often the one that can still go the furthest with the lowest consumption. The EPA needs better tests but even so, petroleum powered cars often used to come with city and highway economy figures. That is not the case on a Tesla. I see one "Range" rating and for my car and it is 507 km. That is not achievable and Tesla knows this because if I put in a trip of 420 km from my house to a supercharger location, Tesla's website will route me an alternate direction that adds 800 km to the trip. When I bought the car, I assumed even in the winter if I lost half my range I would still be able to make this trip of 250 km, but then quickly found out that is not the case since the original value is inflated.
All I wanted was some real world data because the rated range is nowhere near accurate. Some people have taken the opportunity to defend Tesla on Tesla gaming the EPA ratings. I don't really understand that. Perhaps they own stock. If a company is gaming the system, even if they are following the rules, they aren't doing the customers a favor. If you own a Tesla, Tesla using different tests to inflate their EPA range is not a service to you.
And yes, when it is really cold I expected the range to drop, but I was hoping for some data on just how far it would drop. To those that replied to this thread, I really do appreciate it and the data helped me make the decision to not use the Tesla for this trip.
I agree. 160 miles away that gives you like a 50% buffer. Also make sure you warm up the car while it's plugged in at home before you start your journey.
Do you have any source that supports that Tesla “cheats”? Do you own a non Tesla ev that you have tested in -21c? My experimentation with abrp shows similar punishments for other brands at cold temps. Obviously means very little, but it’s all I can do. But I can tell you I have driven in ideal temps with a mix of freeway and city driving and I have easily achieved or improved on the wh/mi consumption needed to achieve the rated range. So yes in my life I can hit those numbers. It should be noted though that I have a RWD, not a performance.
Tesla isn't cheating. They are simply using the poorly designed rules to get the longest EPA range they can get.
Here is some info for you:
The Secret Adjustment Factor Tesla Uses to Get Its Big EPA Range Numbers
How Tesla puts distance between itself and the competition while still playing by the EPA's rules.
www.caranddriver.com
I am not blaming Tesla for losing range in the cold. As I said it was expected.
I am happy you have hit your EPA numbers in "ideal temps with a mix of freeway and city driving"
160 mile round trip this weekend used 90% of a “263 mile range” battery
Mild winter conditions.
Temps in the 40s throughout the drive.
Some condensation/drizzle at the start but that’s it as far as wiper usage.
Mostly day time driving.
CC set to 68 or 69 most of the time.
I actually slowed down from normal driving when seeing how fast the % fell to create some margin so as to not arrive in the low single digits or 0. Matching the slowest car in the right lane at 55-62 was painful and borderline dangerous because people are always cutting you off to take an exit at the last minute. IDK how anyone can drive slower than that on a freeway TBH.
Temps in the 40s throughout the drive.
Some condensation/drizzle at the start but that’s it as far as wiper usage.
Mostly day time driving.
CC set to 68 or 69 most of the time.
I actually slowed down from normal driving when seeing how fast the % fell to create some margin so as to not arrive in the low single digits or 0. Matching the slowest car in the right lane at 55-62 was painful and borderline dangerous because people are always cutting you off to take an exit at the last minute. IDK how anyone can drive slower than that on a freeway TBH.
Birdman325
Member
Just posted in the sticky thread above, but recently (Sunday / Monday) completed a road trip from Toronto to Deerhurst and back.
Drove 214 km to Deerhurst and went from 97% to 17% - 261 wh/km.
Outside temp was -9 C, 2018 LR on 18" Winters with aero covers and about 8% battery degradation. 3 people and interior heater on 18 - 19 C.
Car navigation estimated arriving with about 36% but kept dropping like a stone over the entire drive. Was not very reliable. I was driving a steady apx 123 km/hr
On the way home, drove 226.4 km and went from 99% - 21% 240 wh/km. Temp was -6 degrees outside and there was no snow / roads were dry. Other factors were effectively the same as the way down.
(In the summer / warmer weather I would drive from Toronto to London Ontario, about 204 km and would typically arrive with apx 50% battery remaining.)
Drove 214 km to Deerhurst and went from 97% to 17% - 261 wh/km.
Outside temp was -9 C, 2018 LR on 18" Winters with aero covers and about 8% battery degradation. 3 people and interior heater on 18 - 19 C.
Car navigation estimated arriving with about 36% but kept dropping like a stone over the entire drive. Was not very reliable. I was driving a steady apx 123 km/hr
On the way home, drove 226.4 km and went from 99% - 21% 240 wh/km. Temp was -6 degrees outside and there was no snow / roads were dry. Other factors were effectively the same as the way down.
(In the summer / warmer weather I would drive from Toronto to London Ontario, about 204 km and would typically arrive with apx 50% battery remaining.)
Birdman325
Member
Don't get me wrong, I love the car since the day I got it, but road tripping (or going skiing and leaving the car in a frozen parking lot for an entire day) in very cold winter, snowing / slushy conditions etc can really add a lot of time to a road trip (even more than just "usual" charging time).
In my experience it has to be using the lifetime efficiency of the car to calculate the arrival SOC.
In the summer I would drive 120-140 km/h on my 50 km commute and would usually be within 1-2% of the estimate either way.
I did a road trip from Toronto to Quebec City at a constant 120-130km/h with four passengers and luggage and the arrival estimates were still very close.
There's no way the arrival estimate was using the speed limit as a factor.
Agreed. I assume the speed is a factor in its calculation but last Monday when I drove 120 km at just 90 km/h on a 100 km/h highway because the roads were slippery, but it was -30°C, the arrival SoC was a good 20% under what it had estimated.
Birdman325
Member
Speed may have had something to do with it but temp much more so. The roads were clear and I was driving apx the same speed as I would drive in the summer / warmer temps and the estimates are pretty close.
Well thank you, I did not realize that the epa allowed some variability to conduct their own tests in different ways so I will acknowledge that some of the different range comparison between makers is not apples to apples. But this car and driver article is also slanted with a headline that implies that most or all of the range difference is smoke and mirrors. But looking at their own graphic reveals that the “epa adjustment factor” accounts for only 16 miles out of the 134 mile range difference between the taycan and the S. The 2 biggest factors, like regen braking efficiency and the tesla opening up more usable battery capacity - these are things that will truly get you more range, and are not tricks game the system.Tesla isn't cheating. They are simply using the poorly designed rules to get the longest EPA range they can get.
Here is some info for you:
The Secret Adjustment Factor Tesla Uses to Get Its Big EPA Range Numbers
How Tesla puts distance between itself and the competition while still playing by the EPA's rules.
I am not blaming Tesla for losing range in the cold. As I said it was expected.
I am happy you have hit your EPA numbers in "ideal temps with a mix of freeway and city driving"
in any case your main beef….which is the severity of range drop in cold temps…should be fairly consistent across makers. If that is not the case I’d love to read about how that happens. (One way is the voluntary reduction…taycan voluntarily subtracted 8 miles from their epa range to underpromise and over deliver … and that isn’t a language that Elon speaks!)
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