Losing enthusiasm for Model 3

[AustinPowers]

Its a matter of expectation. Elon shouldn't repeatedly set unrealistic expectations to the general public.

Ignoring how old a reservation is while giving absolute priority to higher priced trims is not what the general public expects. It reinforces an image of Tesla as snobby, elitist.

You do not stand in line at the store and have the cashier ask for only those making the most expensive purchases to step up first. Anyone with lower priced purchases move to the back of the line. And even worse, anyone who shows up later intending to spend more gets to cut in line.

Its simply not what the general public has typically seen nor experiences nor would appreciate. The general response is likely to give up on the line and go somewhere else. There appears little advantage to being in line at all other than making you feel bad because people are repeatedly allowed to cut in line in front of you. Your money isn't good enough. Your two year wait in line counted for nothing. It is disingenuous.

This, this, this, this, and then some! +1000

Tesla as it stands doesn't give a sh** about all those who reserved on day one, as long as they let anyone rich enough to just buy an S or X in the meantime jump the queue whenever they want.

In hindsight, I really don't understand why I gave Tesla my money on day 1, now that I get punished for it, day by day, week by week, month by month that anyone else is allowed to jump the queue as long as he/she has deep enough pockets.
I know what VW did was wrong and I am totally pi**ed off about it, but that behaviour Tesla is showing towards people in my situation is just as infuriating. The only reason they - for now - can get away with it is because they don't have enough relevant competition yet. Fast forward two or three years, and as soon as people can buy great BEVs from legacy automakers, Tesla will have a really hard time to stay in business, because legacy automakers don't treat their customers the aforementioned way, plus they know how to build vehicles to schedule, to quality, and to customer's demands. Tesla doesn't. They know how to show off, how to hype up people, and how to massively dissapoint time and time again when it comes to delivering on the hype.

 

[AustinPowers]

My experience at the stores recently wasn't so great... It felt like "high pressure sales tactics" like we were told were something Tesla was supposed to avoid with company owned stores...

Sorry to say, my experience at Tesla stores has always been the one you describe.

If you get a CPO from Tesla, you get a renewed 4yr, 50,000mi warranty.

Just a reminder, Tesla doesn't sell CPO cars anymore over here, or used, or inventory. Just for the record. The only way you can currently get a Tesla over here is either new from Tesla themselves, or used from the secondary market.

 

[AustinPowers]

Well, gosh, it’s a reality in which you gave me a Disagree for citing facts about my CPO buying experience & how remarkably little depreciation there has been.

If it bothers you so much, maybe you shouldn’t do it to others.

I gave you a disagree about what you called depreciation because it is plain BS. No currently available Tesla has 800 USD depreciation in one year, not even the oldest one around. It's just not possible. Even a 20K car has more than 800 USD depreciation in one year, let alone a 100K+ car.
But believe what you want. I know the facts and you can't change them, no matter how hard you wish you could.

Financially, it’s a no-brainer. Let’s say you sell the car in 3-5 years when it’s lost 1/2 its value. So you’ll get back $25k, and the car will actually cost you $25k over 3-5 years. Pretty good.

See, you yourself admit a car loses about half its value in five years (which is even optimistic, but anyway).
So for your Model S to lose just 800 USD in one year, what did you pay for it? 10K USD? See the error in your logic?

 

[AustinPowers]

5 out of 5 stars is not the same as a numerical rating like 3448/5000. Tesla changes the scale.

Are we talking about the same vehicle? The last crash test results I know of (both IIHS as well as Euro NCAP) gave the Model S just 4 out of 5 stars overall, with safety lacking in several key areas. Several ICE vehicles, even much cheaper ones than a Model S, got 5 out of 5 stars.
From that my takeaway would be that Tesla vehicles are indeed safe, but not safer than many other vehicles currently on the market.

 

[Sportstick]

Are we talking about the same vehicle? The last crash test results I know of (both IIHS as well as Euro NCAP) gave the Model S just 4 out of 5 stars overall, with safety lacking in several key areas. Several ICE vehicles, even much cheaper ones than a Model S, got 5 out of 5 stars.
From that my takeaway would be that Tesla vehicles are indeed safe, but not safer than many other vehicles currently on the market.

...and I know of no other 4 door vehicles which do not provide for operating the rear interior door latch releases for passenger escape in a post-crash loss of electrical power.

 

[dsm363]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I care enough to go out of my way to do a test drive. I have no doubt it's an impressive driving experience. The question I have to ask myself is if it's worth taking on additional debt at this point in time. I have enough to make a substantial down payment, but not enough to buy one cash.

I understand your frustration about the delay and waiting but you also said you are in no hurry to get one either. I seriously doubt the Bolt would add any excitement of what the Model 3 would provide. If you aren't in a hurry then, waiting until the fall when the cheaper Model 3 you want comes out wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[david_42]

I may still end up configuring and taking delivery. It's just that I'm not red-hot gung-ho like I once was. Hopefully my feelings will change if/when I get behind the wheel.

I'm in the same boat. At this time my perceptions of the Model 3 include: too big, too focused on being a gadget, I don't care about the acceleration, rear charging port will be a real pain in our driveway, key - what key?, fob - what fob?, beta software "features", non-features (aka in development), TACC is jerky, lane control drifts, no hatchback.

It is entirely possible that I will use some of my Tesla stock profits to buy another manufacturer's EV. As my wife has pointed out, our Kia is a good car without any problems, so no rush. Also, she mostly wants adaptive cruise control and it's available (non-beta) on much less expensive cars already.

 

[igotzzoom]

I'm in the same boat. At this time my perceptions of the Model 3 include: too big, too focused on being a gadget, I don't care about the acceleration, rear charging port will be a real pain in our driveway, key - what key?, fob - what fob?, beta software "features", non-features (aka in development), TACC is jerky, lane control drifts, no hatchback.

Too big? The 3s I’ve seen in person actually look smaller than I expected. The size is “just right” for me, but certainly not what I’d consider a “big” car. I’m with you about being disappointed it’s not a hatch. I appreciate all the perspectives and feedback on this thread. I hope it’s clear that I’m not a “hater” or Tesla perma-bear (heck, I own the stock now [through converted Solar City shares]) but just expressing my disappointment that this hasn’t happened on the timeline or budget expected. I know....First World problems.

 

[McRat]

I understand your frustration about the delay and waiting but you also said you are in no hurry to get one either. I seriously doubt the Bolt would add any excitement of what the Model 3 would provide. If you aren't in a hurry then, waiting until the fall when the cheaper Model 3 you want comes out wouldn't be a bad thing.

Excitement is relative. For straight lines, as of 2015, the number is $25,000.00 MSRP and 0-150 mph in 9.5 seconds. By enhancing starting line traction and remapping the ECU, the same vehicle went 0-176 mph in 8.1 seconds taking 1320 feet to do it in, or about a city block.

The fact that Tesla locks the Stability Control says something about what kind of excitement you're buying. Great performance for a grocery getter. Nothing more.

If you want 'excitement' today on a budget, I'd spend $32k on a 1LE Camaro. Yes, you can tune the suspension and turn off the nannies, and embarrass cars costing twice as much. But be aware, it comes with 3 pedals & brakes, and you will need to use them all. There will not be a Tesla that will catch it in the foreseeable future that mortals can buy.

Prediction: middle class folk will not see a 'cheaper' Model 3 for more than a year from today, probably 2-3 years.

 

[Drone Flyer]

I know I'm probably going to get plenty of blowback on this post, but I don't really care. I admit that I was very excited and passionate when I originally put in my deposit online night of the reveal in 2016. That was now nearly two years ago. Since then, GM has brought a full-fledged long-range EV to market, and seems to have no shortage of them available. Yes, I know comparing the Bolt and Model 3 is an apples and oranges comparison. I get it.

Secondly, we're nowhere near the $35,000 real-world price that was promised, and it looks like it's going to be a long time until that's the case.

Thirdly, the Model 3 will soon no longer be the only game in town in terms of a reasonably affordable long-range (200+ mile) EV. It ceased to be that when the Bolt came out. At this point, I'm not asking for a refund, but I'm honestly not sure what I'm going to do when I finally do get my configuration invite. At this point, I'm not in critical need of a third vehicle in the household. I sold one of my other ICE cars in anticipation of the Model 3, in retrospect, somewhat naïvely thinking I would get it "any day now."

Now, I see announcements of the Hyundai Kona EV and Kia Niro EV. Both of those would fit my needs fine, and I find them more aesthetically pleasing that the somewhat awkward-looking Bolt. However, even my initial revulsion to the Bolt's styling has subdued somewhat. I no longer "hate" it. I still think it's awkward-looking, but I'm to the point where I'd consider it as a daily driver, regardless of styling.

I know none of the vehicles I've mentioned have that status or performance of the Model 3. But I'm to the point where I no longer care about having the "newest, shiniest" thing on the road. If I wanted that, I should have stood in line first day, which I didn't. But considering all of the quality issues I've heard about on the early-run models, I'm not sure I would have wanted one. I'm going to give it until mid-summer 2018 to see if I get my invite. If August '18 comes and goes and still no invite, at that point, I think I'm probably going to ask for my money back.

I'm still a believer in Tesla's mission and what Elon is doing advancing technology in multiple industries. However, I think his showmanship gets him in trouble sometimes in terms of over-promising and under-delivering. I wish he'd be a little more realistic in the timeline goals he announces.

Except that only Tesla, and only Tesla, offers a sustainable charging network almost world wide, where you can embark on a long journey comfortably without having to wait for hours at a utility pole charger as is the case with every other make. To me its a no brainer, it's a Tesla or nothing!

 

[ohmman]

If you want 'excitement' today on a budget, I'd spend $32k on a 1LE Camaro. Yes, you can tune the suspension and turn off the nannies, and embarrass cars costing twice as much.

Other cars aren't the only things that'll be embarrassed when you're in a Camaro.

 

[AustinPowers]

Except that only Tesla, and only Tesla, offers a sustainable charging network almost world wide, where you can embark on a long journey comfortably without having to wait for hours at a utility pole charger as is the case with every other make. To me its a no brainer, it's a Tesla or nothing!

Granted, but you should never underestimate how many people couldn't care less about the SC network because in their daily driving they will never need it. Especially if the Model 3 is not their only family car.

 

[McRat]

Other cars aren't the only things that'll be embarrassed when you're in a Camaro.

7:16.04 Nürburgring time as sold with Chevy engineer at helm, with a stick shift. No reflashed ECM, non-OEM tires, limited production options, sub-500 unit runs, professional race drivers, moved suspension points, blueprinted engine, etc. Yeah Porsche, we are talking about you.

No waiting list, no parts 'You Are Not Permitted To Buy', no gutted interior, no removal of back seats, no emissions exempt ECM flash.

Camaros are for people who like to win. Porsches are for people who want others to THINK they are capable of winning.

Spend your money on tires, not special polishes and matching luggage...

 

[seattlite2004]

Except that only Tesla, and only Tesla, offers a sustainable charging network almost world wide, where you can embark on a long journey comfortably without having to wait for hours at a utility pole charger as is the case with every other make. To me its a no brainer, it's a Tesla or nothing!

Maybe...but CCS and CHAdeMO are catching up:

 

[mkspeedr]

7:16.04 Nürburgring time as sold with Chevy engineer at helm, with a stick shift. No reflashed ECM, non-OEM tires, limited production options, sub-500 unit runs, professional race drivers, moved suspension points, blueprinted engine, etc. Yeah Porsche, we are talking about you.

No waiting list, no parts 'You Are Not Permitted To Buy', no gutted interior, no removal of back seats, no emissions exempt ECM flash.

Camaros are for people who like to win. Porsches are for people who want others to THINK they are capable of winning.

Spend your money on tires, not special polishes and matching luggage...

View attachment 285563

Yes that Camaro will be a model 3 around the Nurburgring. Both my dad's EVO's will blow that Camaro off the ring. There is always someone faster.

The model 3 is behind schedule. They will disappoint a lot of people but it will still be the best EV for the money.

 

[McRat]

Yes that Camaro will be a model 3 around the Nurburgring. Both my dad's EVO's will blow that Camaro off the ring. There is always someone faster.

The model 3 is behind schedule. They will disappoint a lot of people but it will still be the best EV for the money.

The $22k Camaro will for sure, just the same as all cars in that class. Discussions focused on waiting past 2019, perhaps 2020 and getting a $35k EV sports sedan that will bury the last 20 years of chassis development by a dozen players who have been slugging it out toe-to-toe since forever is not a realistic expectation. As of this time, you will someday be able to buy a 75 kWh sedan starting at $50,000 in black. It is not a sport variant. You can't even turn off the babysitter, has no LSD, or adjustments for the suspension or dampening, tools or no tools. Today's $50,000 sports focused vehicles are several steps up the food chain from the Tesla lineup.

That being said, the Model 3 is going to be a great EV. What other choices will be available in 2019/2021 is unknown at this stage. Even the Model 3 isn't really known well since under 2% of the people who ordered them 2 years ago have received one. Very little feedback, and nothing is known about 2019+ models, which are what most people will receive who ordered in 2016.

Other cars aren't the only things that'll be embarrassed when you're in a Camaro.

Perhaps somedays even a Tesla can cause embarrassment? Dunno...

REFUEL 2017 EV Race Results:

1 Billy Kwan Chevy Bolt 01:56.619 * TRACK RECORD
2 Scott Cornell Chevrolet Bolt EV 2017 White 02:01.864
3 William Davis Chevrolet Spark EV 2016 Blue 02:04.333
4 Adam Kasprzyk Honda Fit EV 2013 02:06.740
5 Douglas Evans Ford Focus Electric 02:09.799
6 Ron Easley Nissan Leaf 2013 Silver 02:11.265
7 Jeremy Whaling Chevrolet Spark EV 02:11.829
8 Chuck Jacobi Kia Soul 2016 Black 02:12.004
9 Joe Chen Tesla Model S 2016 DNF

Yeah, I can understand being hammered by a Bolt, but not a Leaf...

 

[dgpcolorado]

Maybe...but CCS and CHAdeMO are catching up:
View attachment 285584

View attachment 285585

View attachment 285586

That's catching up? See those big blank spots? Some of us actually live there or want to drive through there. And do those icons each represent 4 to 40 chargers that you can use just by plugging-in or do you have to hope that the one or two chargers are working, accessible, available and in a network for which you are a member?

No, I don't buy it. CCS and Chademo have a LONG way to go to match the utility of the Supercharger network.

 

[Esme Es Mejor]

I gave you a disagree about what you called depreciation because it is plain BS. No currently available Tesla has 800 USD depreciation in one year, not even the oldest one around. It's just not possible. Even a 20K car has more than 800 USD depreciation in one year, let alone a 100K+ car.
But believe what you want. I know the facts and you can't change them, no matter how hard you wish you could.

Then you gave me a Disagree because you are ignorant & unwilling to let my facts interfere with your beliefs. I know what I paid for the car & what KBB says it is worth today. That difference is $800. I’m not claiming that is sustainable (in fact, I think it’s because the Model 3 delays have pushed up interest in CPOs), or that it will only depreciate $800/year in the future. But in my first year of ownership, that is how much it has depreciated. That’s a fact, and you’re disagreeing with a fact.

 

[Esme Es Mejor]

See, you yourself admit a car loses about half its value in five years.

No, I’m stating my expectations for depreciation of a new car, not the actual depreciation of the CPO Model S I bought. The Model S probably lost about 1/2 its value during the 4 years the original owner owned it. Then, I bought it & it depreciated another $800 (less than 2%).

Based on the depreciation of new Model S (about 1/2 its value over 3-5 years), I have similar expectations for the Model 3. Instead of disagreeing with my empirical data, you should learn from it.

 

[Ulmo]

I think Tesla is dragging its feet. This gives time for competiton. I don’t think it’s entirely intentional or unintentional. It is what it is. The more competition, the better: if Tesla is the only good EV, their EVs will suck. If everyone makes EVs, I can get a good one for a fair price. Some companies would compete instead of throwing any old thing out the door.

Back when Tesla Model S had to prove itself, it was a great step forward. Now, it’s trying to achieve policy milestones, and all of their enemies have come to trip it up, along with a part time CEO hoping change works.