Major strata management group MICM in Victoria blocking installation of EV chargers

[mukaibot]

Hey friends, a mate of mine is wanting to get an EV charger installed in his apartment. The body corp previously quoted approximately $5k to have this installed. Several other owners have also paid, so there are a few EV chargers in the building.
However they have now sent this around to residents:

Has anyone else come across similar advise from other Strata's? I haven't heard of EV chargers causing "explosion issues".

 

[MossDaddy]

Yes! In NSW having the same issues - not necessarily due to some alleged “fire risk” (which is baloney?) but from Strata Management companies with power trips.

 

[paulp]

Any building in australia with a floor more than 25m above ground is going to be fully sprinklered and alarmed. I cannot see the government or insurers requiring more than endless water being there (which is what sprinklers do) to instantly deal with a fire, which insurance company led research is proven to be massively more likely from an ice car. I‘m also not seeing any insurance company led issues at a commercial or residential level. Strata Managers should not be doing unresearched guidance.

 

[Zoltrix77]

Any building in australia with a floor more than 25m above ground is going to be fully sprinklered and alarmed. I cannot see the government or insurers requiring more than endless water being there (which is what sprinklers do) to instantly deal with a fire, which insurance company led research is proven to be massively more likely from an ice car. I‘m also not seeing any insurance company led issues at a commercial or residential level. Strata Managers should not be doing unresearched guidance.

I think the issue with EV fires is that even endless water doesn't help, the fire will not go out until the battery is consumed by the fire. Park several EVs next to each other within an enclosed space and its easy to see what they are concerned about. What actual research that was done is main issue here.

 

[paulp]

I think the issue with EV fires is that even endless water doesn't help, the fire will not go out until the battery is consumed by the fire. Park several EVs next to each other within an enclosed space and its easy to see what they are concerned about. What actual research that was done is main issue here.

Fire sprinklers dont do much of a job on a petrol car fire either

 

[PC__LoadLetter]

I think the issue with EV fires is that even endless water doesn't help, the fire will not go out until the battery is consumed by the fire. Park several EVs next to each other within an enclosed space and its easy to see what they are concerned about. What actual research that was done is main issue here.

Water helps.

Air is horrible at dissipating heat energy. Water dissipates it just fine. The chemical energy stored in the battery is being rapidly released as heat energy, and it will continue to do so until the battery interior reaches equilibrium with the surrounding environment. Dumping water on it speeds up that process by absorbing the heat and shunting it away towards the drainage pit. Firies would aim their hoses a tad better, but standard basement sprinklers are way better than nothing.

Damage to other vehicles, and to the building, is covered by the third party property damage component of the offending vehicle's insurance. The only time strata insurance would matter is if that damage is more extensive than the $20m your typical comprehensive or TPPD insurance policy covers, or if the offending vehicle isn't insured.

But to add more fuel on the fire, the risk of a fire (thermal runaway event) doesn't change much based on whether or not the vehicle is charging. It generally changes based on whether there's been a recent sudden impact crash. As such, this entire line of discussion is irrelevant. All that changes with charging infrastructure is that there'll probably be more energy in the battery to dissipate, should such an event occur. Unless they want to go full Chevy Bolt and ban EVs from their basements, that is.

 

[meloccom]

I’m currently working with a body corporate of a large apartment building in Sydney CBD To install anEV backbone system in the basement parking garage.
The only change to the law coming up in NSW is the requirement that charging is stopped whenever there is a fire alarm in the building and we are dealing with that by installing dedicated electrical boards through the basement car park allowing the fire control system to de-energise those boards whenever a fire alarm is activated.
A car fire in an underground garage is a catastrophe regardless of the type of vehicle, my understanding is that the fire department wants to be able to flow water without needing to worry about active EV charging sessions going on at the same time.

 

[paulp]

I’m currently working with a body corporate of a large apartment building in Sydney CBD To install anEV backbone system in the basement parking garage.
The only change to the law coming up in NSW is the requirement that charging is stopped whenever there is a fire alarm in the building and we are dealing with that by installing dedicated electrical boards through the basement car park allowing the fire control system to de-energise those boards whenever a fire alarm is activated.
A car fire in an underground garage is a catastrophe regardless of the type of vehicle, my understanding is that the fire department wants to be able to flow water without needing to worry about active EV charging sessions going on at the same time.

A similar system is typically used to shut down aircon plant as pumping air into a fire isnt great. it also turns on huge fans in the fire rated stairwells that pressurise them, thereby preventing smoke entering the stairwell when the door is open for escapees. This is why the doors normally slam shut. They have to be able to self close when under positive pressure.

 

[Vostok]

Has anyone else come across similar advise from other Strata's? I haven't heard of EV chargers causing "explosion issues".

Well that notice seems like something Sky After Dark would write. I’m not aware of a single instance in Australia of a battery EV catching fire while parked in a garage or car park. But there certainly have been fires in car parks and garages from ICE vehicles.

Last year there was a vehicle fire in a residential garage in Sydney that was initially blamed on an EV that the right-wing media then jumped on - but it turned out there wasn’t an EV at the property.

EXCLUSIVE: Sydney house fire not caused by Tesla electric car, authorities confirm

Despite media reports to the contrary, no electric car or charging system was located in a Prestons home which caught fire overnight.

www.drive.com.au

A simple Google search reveals a number of other ICE vehicle fires in garages in Sydney. April 2021 in Penrith, June 2021 in Castle Hill, and in an apartment building in Zetland in May this year. And that’s just on results Page 1.

Then there’s shopping centres. In June this year a car burst into flames in Northland Shopping Centre, Melbourne. ICE. In 2018 there was a vehicle fire in the Chadstone shopping centre car park - also ICE. And in Jesmond Shopping Centre in Newcastle in 2018, Penrith 2017…

And the recent report of EVs catching fire on the Fremantle Highway off the coast of the Netherlands was wrong too. A preliminary investigation by salvage firm Royal Boskalis Westminster showed that all 498 EVs on the carrier were intact, and the fire started on decks above where these cars were held.

A Ship Carrying Electric Cars Is On Fire! We Must Run And Tell The King!! - CleanTechnica

The press reported for weeks that a fire aboard a car carrier ship was caused by electric cars. It turns out, those reports were false.

cleantechnica.com

So I don’t see how MICM can claim with any authority that “fire and insurance risks are high” when it comes to BEV fires compared to ICE vehicle fires.

 

[Quickst]

So I don’t see how MICM can claim with any authority that “fire and insurance risks are high” when it comes to BEV fires compared to ICE vehicle

It really comes down to who is carrying the liability. It's very easy for those not carrying that liability to say there is no risk. It may be correct that the risk is no more than the usual, but the liability carrier will need to be satisfied about it.

Eventually they will see that there are lots of car parks with charging without any issues. But this is something the building management industry will need to work through

 

[paulp]

It really comes down to who is carrying the liability. It's very easy for those not carrying that liability to say there is no risk. It may be correct that the risk is no more than the usual, but the liability carrier will need to be satisfied about it.

Eventually they will see that there are lots of car parks with charging without any issues. But this is something the building management industry will need to work through

absolutely agree, and its interesting that a major underwriter in the US commisioned a report to understand its risk. The result was this. For every 100,000 cars in each fuel type; hybrid 3474 caught fire. Petrol/diesel 1529 fires, EV 25 fires. Seems to me the strata manager should be more worried about the hybrids parked downstairs.
I suspect this report forms the basis of liability assessment, and are not insurers taking less liability dealing with EV over any other form of vehicle (other than horse drawn carts)?

 

[Zoltrix77]

Water helps.

Air is horrible at dissipating heat energy. Water dissipates it just fine. The chemical energy stored in the battery is being rapidly released as heat energy, and it will continue to do so until the battery interior reaches equilibrium with the surrounding environment. Dumping water on it speeds up that process by absorbing the heat and shunting it away towards the drainage pit. Firies would aim their hoses a tad better, but standard basement sprinklers are way better than nothing.

Damage to other vehicles, and to the building, is covered by the third party property damage component of the offending vehicle's insurance. The only time strata insurance would matter is if that damage is more extensive than the $20m your typical comprehensive or TPPD insurance policy covers, or if the offending vehicle isn't insured.

But to add more fuel on the fire, the risk of a fire (thermal runaway event) doesn't change much based on whether or not the vehicle is charging. It generally changes based on whether there's been a recent sudden impact crash. As such, this entire line of discussion is irrelevant. All that changes with charging infrastructure is that there'll probably be more energy in the battery to dissipate, should such an event occur. Unless they want to go full Chevy Bolt and ban EVs from their basements, that is.

Thanks for the informed response.

I agree the charging of EVs is not a likely fire risk. Just the possibility of multiple EVs parked close to each other in the car park then.

 

[moa999]

I'd be more concerned about people charging things like scooters, golf carts etc. Things that are far more likely to have cheaper batteries and management systems.

 

[Quickst]

and are not insurers taking less liability dealing with EV over any other form of vehicle (other than horse drawn carts)?

I suspect they will need to be satisfied as an insurer /underwriter with the associated box ticking exercise. Perhaps the risk is not so much the fire but the ease of putting it out. Then the charging implementation is another issue with compliance with the various authorities and building bylaws etc etc. . None of this is ever going to be quick though. On the other hand moves are afoot - shopping centres, some residential apartments etc are installing charging so it's not all bad.

 

[paulp]

I suspect they will need to be satisfied as an insurer /underwriter with the associated box ticking exercise. Then the implementation is another issue with compliance with the various authorities. None of this is ever going to be quick though. On the other hand moves are afoot - shopping centres, some residential apartments etc are installing charging so it's not all bad.

I’m not aware of any building insurer denying or hiking rates due to ev’s being parked. I’ve not even heard of one seeking a declaration of such.

 

[Quickst]

I'd be more concerned about people charging things like scooters, golf carts etc

I remember as a student I used to board at University residential quarters. There were strict rules regarding extension cords, power boards, PowerPoint adapters.

Electrical fires are bad, and risk mitigation is very important. One way to interpret the reticence of building managers vis a vis retrofitting EV chargers in residential building as taking a cautious approach which in one sense is the right way to approach it. A High rise residential apartment fire can be catastrophic

 

[Quickst]

I’m not aware of any building insurer denying or hiking rates due to ev’s being parked

Agree, but the issue at hand is the retrofitting of EV charging in existing buildings. I'm not an engineer but why that is an issue escapes me but here we are...

 

[paulp]

Agree, but the issue at hand is the retrofitting of EV charging in existing buildings. I'm not an engineer but why that is an issue escapes me but here we are...

Insurers are not stupid and they do a lot of research. They will insure people and property but provide no cover for a risk they identify as too great. For example, if you are in a flood zone they may choose to insure you but provide no flood cover. If you have flammable cladding they may insure you but not against fire spread by the cladding. Professionals take out PI insurance. Mine for example gives me no cover if I provide advice about asbestos or combustible cladding. Insurers know their risks. They mitigate by exclusion if the risk is too high. But this is about a strata manager who’s sole research is likely reading beatup stories in murdoch media aiming to get maximum comments. Maybe the strata should seek advice from their insurer instead.
The advice said “currently the insurance and fire risks are high”. I’d love to see their evidence of that.

 

[Quickst]

Maybe the strata should seek advice from their insurer instead.

Perhaps they did?.

 

[Vostok]

I'd be more concerned about people charging things like scooters, golf carts etc. Things that are far more likely to have cheaper batteries and management systems.

The one confirmed battery-related garage fire that I could find was from someone charging an e-scooter.