I'm not thinking like Trump or Obama. I'm thinking like someone in the real world. Price matters. Price comes down through volume and manufacturing innovation. Look at how LED TVs killed CRT and plasmas once pricing came down. No politicians involved!
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
- Status
I'm not thinking like Trump or Obama. I'm thinking like someone in the real world. Price matters. Price comes down through volume and manufacturing innovation. Look at how LED TVs killed CRT and plasmas once pricing came down. No politicians involved!
The price of electronics comes down dramatically as IC production yields go up and software creation costs are recouped. Heavy industry has more costs that don't go down as dramatically with time. EVs will get cheaper as batteries get cheaper and volumes increase, but don't expect EVs to drop in price like computers did.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Obama didn't kill coal, natural gas did.
Obama tried to kill fracking but it took off anyway.
Trump tried to save coal but it died anyway.
Repeat after me, the economics of the private sector are more powerful than any government.
Absolutely. So much that I went completely EV in 2012 and my house has solar, led bulbs, etc. Powerwall going in next month.
I just believe we individuals and the private sector can deliver solutions faster than a corrupt, bureaucratic government.
I believe in the intent of the Green New Deal but am turned off by how much non-climate change policy is in there.
It doesn't have to be as fast but it is happening.
The way to get the masses on board is price/value that saves money. We are approaching that soon.
This is not too far from Moore's law.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Don't know where that graph came from but it doesn't seem accurate. Tesla's pack energy density has barely improved since 2012, certainly no where near double, and that chart only goes to 2015.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Funny that you think the private sector and individuals are not also corrupt.
Of course they are. Never said they aren't. People are people no matter where they go. I will say that government seems to attract more corrupt and sociopath types than the private sector. Power attracts those types.
A study a few years back found sociopaths/psychopaths were twice as common in CEOs than the general population. Psychopaths tend to gravitate to where the real power is and at the moment that's in the private sector, not government.
The thing with government is a well constructed government with strong rule of law keeps psychopaths in check.
The only other way to deal with them is to do what the Inuit did. Sociopath studies have found that they have the lowest incidence of psychopathy of any population in the world. Discussions with Intuits some old timers pointed out that anyone demonstrating psychopathy tended to have unfortunate accidents during hunts.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Exactly, "repeat after me", sounds almost like Trump, and you completely ignored the post you responded to.
In general, your points are not necessarily wrong in themselves, but absolutely one sided.
There is, of course, nothing wrong with individual action, on the contrary.
But there is something wrong with denying political action.
Tesla (and Fiska, GM, Ford) did receive help for electric car production and sales in more ways than you appear to acknowledge. And that really helped. A lot.
For example, we didn't mention that Tesla's original Roadster, its starting point, was said to be motivated as a response to the "killing" of GM's EV1, which in turn was a result of California Air Resource Board's (CARB) requirements to the car industry. So maybe without CARB, Elon Musk would be doing nothing else than SpaceX. (Not that I would really know.)
Tesla Model S, Fiska, GM Volt, Ford all started with receiving electric car loans and subsidies. Without that, I don't know what you would be driving. It probably would still happen, but who knows when?
You haven't answer the question: What if EVs remained more expensive, even with all innovation? What if the price of gasoline was so low that controlled-explosion cars just remained more economical, in the absence of carbon tax? Who says zero emission cars will necessarily be more economical than those with lots of emissions, by what principle would that have to be always true?
You have now mentioned that you acknowledge climate change, but you are silent on the time element. What if the economical advantage of EVs with reduced gasoline prices will be so small that except for a small green fan club, it would take a hundred years until the economy completely converts? Not unthinkable at all.
Are you in favor of stopping subsidies for the oil industry?
You haven't answered that either.
The current political conditions are unfair for electric cars (and even more so once Trump is done). You don't mind?
If Trump and Co. make most believe that climate change is a hoax or ignorable, I'm not sure much would change in the next, say, 70 years.
Consider that electricity used by EVs needs to change as well. Just natural gas instead of coal isn't good enough, with a developing economy.
I am against oil subsidies.
Government has benefited Tesla. But as I said before, private capital could have accomplished just as much. Tesla has benefited much more from private investment than public. Tesla has made EVs affordable, not government. Providing capital is not innovation.
I don’t think natural gas is enough but it is a good bridge. I’m practical about that. I think Gen4 nuclear has a place as well as more solar and wind.
Paracelsus
Active Member
No. Mr. Obama did not attempt to kill fracking. Mr Obama appointed Colorado Senator Ken Salazar to head the Department of Interior where he helped the Obama Administration advance fracking across the rest of the country as he did in Colorado. Thus Mr. Obama stepped on the Fracking gas pedal despite having the House and Senate behind him his first 2 years on office. Sad but true.
Norbert
TSLA will win
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Still wrong. Simple question, has the Model S pack energy density more than doubled since 2012?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
I'm not revealing any information that could result in the public disclosure of my name, etc. Too many nuts out there, I would hate for them to do something stupid like look me up and then have to exercise my 2nd amendment rights.
- Status
Similar threads
