So do you think I have 82 kWh? As I posted, a new document shown a Q4 2021 with lg battery with 79 kWh (code E5LD). I think that after some LG with 82 kWh maybe now the new one have 79? Could be?
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MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc
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Yes the LG E5LD WAS Supposed to be 82 (speculations) . It is a 78,xx kWh battery . And I repeat it will grow even up to 80 kWh.
Here is a a charging test from today with SW 2021.40.6.
The changes on the LG 5C charging curve dont seem apply in the same way to the LG 5L...
The E5LD that I initially measured at 77,8kWh is now at 78,9kWh after 2000km.
The changes on the LG 5C charging curve dont seem apply in the same way to the LG 5L...
The E5LD that I initially measured at 77,8kWh is now at 78,9kWh after 2000km.
Ma
many thanks! I will update you and all here when I‘m going to reach 3k of km. Now I have 1,5k of km
Well, we can put (or think) at anything in different ways:
Temperature can have a much higher effect on degradation than SOC.
But the advice ”When you have high SOC, keep the ambient tempeture down” is not very good for most as we most often do not have the choice of having +40 or +10 ambient temp at the same day and position.
So I like to think like this:
Calendar aging = Time x SOC x Temp.
We can reduce time at high SOC.
Time at high SOC during high temps, so if the ambient temp is high, try (harder) not to leave the car with high SOC.
I have a well insulated garage, I did actually put/leave the car in the garage when I was home during hot days this summer, when I had the ICE-car I did leave it outside, this was a active way of having the car at about 20C instead of it frying in the sun in 30C.( priobably heat the battery beyond that in the sun. We dont have that many days at 30 each year, so it probably dont cause a big difference, but as I could do it without effort and the charger is there anyway…
The graphs differ as they comes from different research reports.
All research doesnt think the same, and some did specific try to find why the degradation curve look as it looks.
Some use only a few points, and miss the important information about the steep step between 55-60% in NCA batteries.
Using datapoint only each 20%( among them 40 and 60%) will hide what happens in between and if you do not know this you probably draw a straight line between your research points. This is the main difference between these graphs, except for that one have more temperature points, which was good in my post where that one was used.
Lithium batteries including NCA( Panasonic/Tesla) degrade less the lower the SOC. This is true as long as the battery cell is within the specified voltage range( 2.5-4.2V). Tesla has a buffer of about 4.5% so 0% in the screen is about 4.5% true SOC.
0% on the screen is safe for the lithium batt with very low calendar aging.
Teslas have a 12v lead battery that is fed by the big lithium battery. If the big battery reaches the low limit it shut down the charging of the small 12v lead battery. This means risk if not being able to power up the car, and also that the 12V batt can be damaged( lead acid batterys degrade fast by sulfating). Tesla do not say that the big battery can be damaged but they say “components” or something like that. The amber/red battery warning when having low SOC most certain comes from minimizing the risk of getting stranded and also damage to the 12v lead battery.
= The big lithium battery is safe to 0%.
Lithium batteries ages least when having low SOC and cycled at very low SOC. 0-10% or 0-20% would make them last virtually forever.
Why doesnt Tesla try to make us charge to 20% and use 20-5% ?
Well, the very limited “rules” of not above 90% except for longer trips is enough to make the battery last longer than the warranty and in many case longer than the car anyway.
What about the SEI buildup that happens on the anodes when you don't regularly charge to 3.92V? Have they mitigated that issue on the new Tesla batteries?
A strange curious thing happened to my car today (to SMT NFP actually):
Usually a new Release (in my car) lower the NFP just to return back to previous reading (not always) .
This morning the NFP was 77.4 kWh and usually my car like to stay at a constant value of NFP with 0,1 o r less variations.
This morning I noticed I had the new Release to install (2021.40) so when at work and parked I started to install it.
When I had to use the car to go home the NFP was 77,1 , and the strange thing is that from start to the next 1,5-2 km I noticed the NFP literally flikering/varying from 76,4 to 77,3 in a complulsive way then after about 2 km it stabilized to 77,2 , I mean freezed to 77,2.
I never seen this flickering value . This probably is due to a new learning of the bms because of the new release??
@AAKEE:
Yesterday night (about 23:00) I had (for an unexpected emergency) to charge the car at the SuC (9 km away from my home) . It was at 22% and I needed to charge it . So, going from home to SuC the battery temp was around 8-10°C, and when arrived it was only10-12°C . The pre-warming on the direction to SuC can't do miracles in only 9km.
So I charged to 56% in about 10-12 min at about 90 kW . The Cell temps raised to 48-50°C.
I received the call that the emergency was no more an emergnecy so I made a little trip around and returned to home at about 52%.
1) is charging at a SuC (V3) a bad thing when the cell temp is low? ( I ask about health of battery NOT fast charge ...I really don't care to have the fastest charging speed). Delithiation and lithiation are terms that worries me LOL.
2) When we speak of "Ambient Temp" I know what Ambient temp is obviously, but yesterday the car started to sleep at 3°C with battery temp at 45°C. S what the Temp role in this case ? (cell temp).
Usually a new Release (in my car) lower the NFP just to return back to previous reading (not always) .
This morning the NFP was 77.4 kWh and usually my car like to stay at a constant value of NFP with 0,1 o r less variations.
This morning I noticed I had the new Release to install (2021.40) so when at work and parked I started to install it.
When I had to use the car to go home the NFP was 77,1 , and the strange thing is that from start to the next 1,5-2 km I noticed the NFP literally flikering/varying from 76,4 to 77,3 in a complulsive way then after about 2 km it stabilized to 77,2 , I mean freezed to 77,2.
I never seen this flickering value . This probably is due to a new learning of the bms because of the new release??
@AAKEE:
Yesterday night (about 23:00) I had (for an unexpected emergency) to charge the car at the SuC (9 km away from my home) . It was at 22% and I needed to charge it . So, going from home to SuC the battery temp was around 8-10°C, and when arrived it was only10-12°C . The pre-warming on the direction to SuC can't do miracles in only 9km.
So I charged to 56% in about 10-12 min at about 90 kW . The Cell temps raised to 48-50°C.
I received the call that the emergency was no more an emergnecy so I made a little trip around and returned to home at about 52%.
1) is charging at a SuC (V3) a bad thing when the cell temp is low? ( I ask about health of battery NOT fast charge ...I really don't care to have the fastest charging speed). Delithiation and lithiation are terms that worries me LOL.
2) When we speak of "Ambient Temp" I know what Ambient temp is obviously, but yesterday the car started to sleep at 3°C with battery temp at 45°C. S what the Temp role in this case ? (cell temp).
I wouldn’t guess the article really says “ if you don't charge regularly to 3.92V/cell, you can have SEI buildup on the anode.”I was also reading that if you don't charge regularly to 3.92V/cell, you can have SEI buildup on the anode. So perhaps charging to 60% is the best option?
I just scanned it briefly, and couldn't see it.
Most certain they mean to stay below 3.92V. Not that you gain anything to actually go up there if you can stay below.
SEI is the main calendar aging degradation factor. There is a (thin) SEI layer formed the first time a lithium ion battery is charged, which is fine/ok( we really cannot be without it, as we need to charge the battery).
SEI Grows from time x SOC x temp.
The SEI can also crack, creating openings which causes a new layer which increase the thickness further.
The lower the SOC, the less is the SEI growth. The lower the temp, the lower is the SEI growth. The longer the time, the thicker the layer gets.
I have not seen any research report finding the need to charge to 3.92V. I did read a lot of research. Actually more or less anyone accessible on the net, including quite a few that needs the authors approval to be downloaded.
I will bail out from a long post by linking to one of the easiest read reports that actually covers most of the parts that can be of interrest for a EV owner:Good research report
I chosed this report as it covers all the aspects we discussed so far. There are reports that go more into the deep but they mostly look into only one thing(like calendar aging only).
Its not too long, but if you like to shorten the time look at this:
1.4 Contributions
2.2.1 Calendar aging and cyclic aging
5.2.1 Calendar aging tests (including graph)
5.2.2 Cyclic aging tests (including graphs page 51 and 52)
5.3.1 Aging in small SOC intervalls(including graphs page 59)
The battery cells in the research is NMC/LCO mixed cells, but the principles is the same for Tesla/Panasonic. All graphs referenced above shows the principle that is also valud for these( exact numbers/cycles is not the same, but the effect of calendar aging and cyclic aging is).
Important: FCE= Full Cycles Equivalent. This means that for one FCE there is 10 cycles with 10% DoD, or 2 with 50% DoD.
1000 FCE with 10% DoD is actually 10.000 small cycles.
Comments to the ‘should read pages’:
5.2.1: Low SOC is king, and High temp with high SOC is not good. Time = wear.
5.2.2: Small DoD(cycles) at low SOC= the batteries lives forewer!
0-90% gives some 3000 FCE
60-70% gives about 5000
40-50% seem to flat out at 85% capacity and live long.
10-20% stays above 90% capacity forewer!
5.3.1 Aging dependent of SOC
Its very clear that the lower the cycle is in SOC, the less the wear.
Personally I wouldn’t leave the car at a low state of charge. It’s a car first and foremost, not a battery. And the car’s main function is to do everyday chores but alway be ready in case of an emergency. If the dog had to be taken to an emergency vet in the middle of the night and the car wasn’t charged, I couldn’t explain that to my wife
1) I wouldnt worry too much about a few SuC with cold battery, but from research we know that high temps( > 40C) is good when it comes to reducing the wear that comes from fast charging. Lithium plating is the badest thing from fast charging, and this lessens with warmer battery, >40C is good. The win from the heating is much, much more than the aging from the heat(as fast charging is a one hour thing maximum).
Preheat always if possible. If you can not get it ”properly heated”, dont worry for a few times of this but do not do it everytime.
2) I would say, the cell temp will fall quickly when it sleeps. One hour or two with falling temp from 45C and 52% SOC should cause very little aging. Compare it to a warm summer week, theres 168 hours at maybe 30-35C average cell temp?
There is a risk that people fall into a dark world of preserving the battery at any cost by reading about how to keep the battery fresh.
Following Teslas advice will most probably keep the battery above the 70% with a margin, so for most this is good enough.
I have learned how to keep it fresh but I wont draw it to the level that causes the EV /Tesla ownership to be troublesome due to low SOC etc. I use 55% SOC because I can drive to work and back and still have a margin for the possible needs during the night.
I charge to 100% and Supercharge whenever I need, without any worry. And i charge to about 80-90 that weekday I need to drive the son to a sport training in the neighbour town.
So, 55% is the level all days I dont need more.
I think that you could follow the advice or conclusions that comes from research and my posts, but only to the level that it is fun.
As soon as it isnt fun anymore, dont do it.
Dont spoil the fun of having a EV, and dont make it a pain
Good post and also good thinking!
My car sleeps at some 25-35% during week nights, and this covers 99.99% of what I might need. Fir the rest I still have one ICE car if I would need(but I cannot figure out what that should be).
If I only had one EV and 50% to hospital, veterinary etc. I’d also would have it at at least 50% I think.
So, 55% is the level all days I dont need more. IT's the same for meSo, 55% is the level all days I dont need more.
I think that you could follow the advice or conclusions that comes from research and my posts, but only to the level that it is fun.
As soon as it isnt fun anymore, dont do it.
Dont spoil the fun of having a EV, and dont make it a pain
I think that you could follow the advice or conclusions that comes from research and my posts, but only to the level that it is fun.
As soon as it isnt fun anymore, dont do it. It's all FUN and I like to kwow how things works
Dont spoil the fun of having a EV, and dont make it a pain
I bought a Tesla Model 3 (...Performance for Fun)I use SuC all the time I need and I like to do long travel with family .
It's funny - I had a LEAF as my first EV with a real world 70-80 miles of range when new. More like 50 miles because I usually charged it to only 80% and that was good enough for nearly all the driving I did.
But in the Tesla I very rarely let it go below 80 miles of rated range (about 60-70 miles real world)! So I could get away with charging to 20-30% - but I'm spoiled by the big battery and charging to 55% lets me typically go 2-4 days before recharging without having to worry about range at all.
Hello everybody,last 2 days have been having an issue with charging. Set the charging limit to 50 or 60% through the app before going to bed,when wake up in the morning the car is charged to 100% and a limit is set to 100%. The charging schedule is off. Anyone have seen this issue before?
High currents increase the wear.
But that is high current during longer times.
Shorts bursts doesnt really matter. Stay cool when SOC is below 20%, no long full throttles.
I have a performance, almost 12 months and I like to use power. If hard acceleration was bad I wouldnt have more or less full range after 30.000km
and the degradation report wouldnt look like this:Similar threads
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