MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[Bouba]

The Panasonic's start at 78-80kWh when delivered in average, but rapidly drop to 75-78kWh.

• The LG's start at 77-78kWh and climb up to 79,3kWh within a couple of months. They then stay at 77-79kWh for quite a long time.

I remember the prophetic words of AAKEE....batteries can only degrade. Most of us see our range increasing and want to believe it...but you are saying it DOES increase its range

 

[eivissa]

I remember the prophetic words of AAKEE....batteries can only degrade. Most of us see our range increasing and want to believe it...but you are saying it DOES increase its range

Yes, but purely calibration. The real capacity, that has always been there, gets unlocked by the BMS. I guess this is part of its learning process. I've had that with late Panasonic's as well, but after one or two 100% charges, the BMS war certain and never got back to that initial peak again.

 

[AAKEE]

I remember the prophetic words of AAKEE....batteries can only degrade. Most of us see our range increasing and want to believe it...but you are saying it DOES increase its range

Yes, as @eivissa says, it is the BMS estimate that changes, not the real capacity.

Battery cells are cycled in a very special way after they are manufactured to “become” working cells. They should have full capacity when this is done.

The way Teslas BMS capacity works the estimated capacity is affected by a lot of stuff. This means charging behaviour etc. affect the estimated capacity. Range will go up and down, but the real range will start “high” and go down slowly and the downslope will reduce.

The red line in this picture is an approx. of my cars real range. Have it in more precise in a excel doc. but it’s good enough to see that the BMS is not spot on any given day.

The blue line is affected by the BMS capacity estimate. Because of the max range on the screen (507-509km) the line is flatter initially than the real degradation.
If there was no max range limit the car would have topped 515 km.

My car did overestimate the range for > 1 year. In the end of the overestimation period the overestimation was about 1.5-2kWh.
Then I had a drop that within short time ended up in a underestimation of about 2kWh. The NFP just have started to climb a bit so today the estimation is 1.5kWh below the real capacity. If the BMS gets back on track the on screen range will increase but the real range will not.
(The real capacity is known from a 100-0% drive a little over a week ago).

 

[AAKEE]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but I have a Dec 2020 M3P with the 2170L Panasonic battery. If I have a 100% on screen range of 298 miles, how am I doing in terms of degradation?

If you look at my post before this you see the teslafi for M3P ‘21 model with the 2170L.
You seem to be on average or slightly better than the average car. (298mi = ca 480 km).
As on screen range vary a bit, its hard to say exactly. Aaaand, as it seems tge BMS can be fairly off both up and down so…

 

[Bouba]

Yes, as @eivissa says, it is the BMS estimate that changes, not the real capacity.

Battery cells are cycled in a very special way after they are manufactured to “become” working cells. They should have full capacity when this is done.

The way Teslas BMS capacity works the estimated capacity is affected by a lot of stuff. This means charging behaviour etc. affect the estimated capacity. Range will go up and down, but the real range will start “high” and go down slowly and the downslope will reduce.

The red line in this picture is an approx. of my cars real range. Have it in more precise in a excel doc. but it’s good enough to see that the BMS is not spot on any given day.

View attachment 844139

The blue line is affected by the BMS capacity estimate. Because of the max range on the screen (507-509km) the line is flatter initially than the real degradation.
If there was no max range limit the car would have topped 515 km.

My car did overestimate the range for > 1 year. In the end of the overestimation period the overestimation was about 1.5-2kWh.
Then I had a drop that within short time ended up in a underestimation of about 2kWh. The NFP just have started to climb a bit so today the estimation is 1.5kWh below the real capacity. If the BMS gets back on track the on screen range will increase but the real range will not.
(The real capacity is known from a 100-0% drive a little over a week ago).

Hi AAKEE, so what was the result of your 100%-0 in kilometers ? On the graph, your average is now reaching the fleet average

 

[AAKEE]

Hi AAKEE, so what was the result of your 100%-0 in kilometers ?

The BMS went from about 81.0 kWh to 77.0 kWh in a short period.

The 100-0% drive ended up with 100-0.41%(was 0.27% when I parked the car but the BMS readjusted the SOC shortly after).
513 km driven and 75.15 kwh used. Remaining energy /Nominal remaining 3.80kWh (buffer 3.5 + 0.3kWh from the 0.41% SOC). The sum of energy was 78.95 kWh.
(This drive was done in two parts, because of a job that had to be done in between, drove 235km, parked the car for about 8hrs and then drove the rest. I did drive 90-100kph on the first part/235km to ensure I had energy to go all the way home. When driving home I used the nav plus the AP, ended up at 86kph with a slight headwind to get home with a safe margin which I then drove around my city to drive to 0%.)

I did have a 100-0% drive planned since x-mas as the BMS was overestimating, and I would like to see the real capacity. In the perfect world we would want the drive to be only one long drive, but my two part divided drive only cause a slight loss during the day. I know my car does use like 0.5-1% during a whole week so I do not think it actually would have made a noticable difference.
I havent had the time to do a one long drive yet, so I took the chance when I anyway had to go to work over one day.

As a parentesis, the 79kWh capacity is exactly within my own calculation, that is built on average SOC, Average batt temp and time + my number of cycles, dept of cycles etc.

On the graph, your average is now reaching the fleet average

There is only one car with teslafi and the same mileage. My car has the longest range of these two. (I of course do not know about other cars over/underestimates, it sure looks like the software change that seem to have ”taken my range” also have increased other cars ranges.
Its probable that the average will even out on the green line when there is more cars with data at these points. Still I guess there will be a increas from what I hear from people with the same car = increasing range after that update.) Picture below from right now, NFP 77.5kWh but the real capacity is 1.5KWh above, so that should be about 10km more range.

 

[Bouba]

The BMS went from about 81.0 kWh to 77.0 kWh in a short period.

The 100-0% drive ended up with 100-0.41%(was 0.27% when I parked the car but the BMS readjusted the SOC shortly after).
513 km driven and 75.15 kwh used. Remaining energy /Nominal remaining 3.80kWh (buffer 3.5 + 0.3kWh from the 0.41% SOC). The sum of energy was 78.95 kWh.
(This drive was done in two parts, because of a job that had to be done in between, drove 235km, parked the car for about 8hrs and then drove the rest. I did drive 90-100kph on the first part/235km to ensure I had energy to go all the way home. When driving home I used the nav plus the AP, ended up at 86kph with a slight headwind to get home with a safe margin which I then drove around my city to drive to 0%.)

I did have a 100-0% drive planned since x-mas as the BMS was overestimating, and I would like to see the real capacity. In the perfect world we would want the drive to be only one long drive, but my two part divided drive only cause a slight loss during the day. I know my car does use like 0.5-1% during a whole week so I do not think it actually would have made a noticable difference.
I havent had the time to do a one long drive yet, so I took the chance when I anyway had to go to work over one day.

As a parentesis, the 79kWh capacity is exactly within my own calculation, that is built on average SOC, Average batt temp and time + my number of cycles, dept of cycles etc.



There is only one car with teslafi and the same mileage. My car has the longest range of these two. (I of course do not know about other cars over/underestimates, it sure looks like the software change that seem to have ”taken my range” also have increased other cars ranges.
Its probable that the average will even out on the green line when there is more cars with data at these points. Still I guess there will be a increas from what I hear from people with the same car = increasing range after that update.) Picture below from right now, NFP 77.5kWh but the real capacity is 1.5KWh above, so that should be about 10km more range.
View attachment 844173

Amazing really ! After 46,000 km your car has an actual range higher than your blue line has ever been

 

[reystar]

It's just different with Pro's and Con's...

Since you didn't mention charge/discharge performance I am gonna mention it here:

• The LG's discharge power is in average about 20kW below the Panasonic. We did some direct comparisons here. It is important to translate the post, as there are a lot of sidenotes to this comparison. Worth noting is, that the LG has a higher voltage curve at low SoC, so it gets faster below 20'ish% SoC.
• The LG's DC charge curve does not have a 250kW plateau as the Panasonic. In some scenarios you will wait up to five minutes longer with the LG pack.

Not scientific, but it is notable that the LG packs still show a very high rated range. Even with high mileage, high DC charge and parked long times at high SoC. The Panasonic gained the nickname "Diva", because even though its initial capacity is higher, it tends to punish the drive with rapid decrease in capacity (mostly calibration, not degradation). This can be:

• Daily charge limit above 60%.
• DC charging of any kind 20kw or 250kW...doesn't matter.
• Same daily charge limit, without being able to sleep at any other SoC state.

I'd say, being so resistant to user behaviour is quite a relevant upside for the LG.


Only on paper...

• The Panasonic's start at 78-80kWh when delivered in average, but rapidly drop to 75-78kWh.
• The LG's start at 77-78kWh and climb up to 79,3kWh within a couple of months. They then stay at 77-79kWh for quite a long time.

I should re-emphasize the word "usually". There are exceptions to this with both packs. In general they have basically the same capacity and on the long run you might see more range with the LG.

Panasonic is NCA and the LG is NMC. Both chemistries will degrade faster if charged above 60-70% daily and kept there for longer durations, even worth if stored in a hot environment (@AAKEE 's chart looks spot on to me!). Above around 95% it gets especially damaging as this is when the voltage curve increases exponentially.

Still, the LG doesn't seem to care about this as much as the Panasonic. One user I will not name is charging his LG 5L with solar and he admits that, when there is excess energy in the evening, he allows the car to go to 100% and keeps it there for days. This is something that makes my skin crawl. The thing is, he regularly posts his rated range in the forum and his car is mostly in the top 1% of the list.
My LG 5L had its highest measured capacity right after a long trip with several supercharger stops. The Panasonic would probably be at it's lowest and in need of weeks of 60% limitation to "regenerate" (or relax from all the "stress") ;-)

Personally: I think the LG 5L is great battery pack, but in a Performance model I would prefer to have the Panasonic.

Thanks! Amazing explanation

 

[AAKEE]

Amazing really ! After 46,000 km your car has an actual range higher than your blue line has ever been

Ehh, I might have failed to explain clearly?

Current range today is about 489-490km according to SMT. Teslafi says 489.
Should be 496 km if the BMS was at 79kWh, as the capacity is.

 

[Bouba]

Ehh, I might have failed to explain clearly?

Current range today is about 489-490km according to SMT. Teslafi says 489.
Should be 496 km if the BMS was at 79kWh, as the capacity is.

Oh ok...I thought that you drove 513 km on a single charge...plus you still had a buffer

 

[AAKEE]

Oh ok...I thought that you drove 513 km on a single charge...plus you still had a buffer

Yepp, I did. Ahh, now I understand what you mean

”Sedan sista laddning” = Since last charge.

And had a solid 0.3kWh ”usable” plus 3.5kWh buffer !

But thats not a definied ”range” as I did drive at my own speed. The last 30km until home was in fog where it is a lot of mooses and stuff so they was slow. And the last 7% after arriving home, was driven around the city outer parts. Mostly 70kph roads.

It is possible to drive 600km or more, just reduce the speed.

 

[DBM3P]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but I have a Dec 2020 M3P with the 2170L Panasonic battery. If I have a 100% on screen range of 298 miles, how am I doing in terms of degradation?

Hi,

I have a U.K. September 2021 delivered M3P. My last charge was 298 at 100%, with the last 90% charge showing 296. I estimate a NFP of 76.5kwh. 8500 miles.

Edit: 2021 model

 

[AAKEE]

Hi,

I have a U.K. September 2021 delivered M3P. My last charge was 298 at 100%, with the last 90% charge showing 296. I estimate a NFP of 76.5kwh. 8500 miles.

Edit: 2021 model

The range numbers between 90 and 100% doesnt ad up. Typo?
If 100% is 298, then 90% should be around 268?

 

[DBM3P]

The range numbers between 90 and 100% doesnt ad up. Typo?
If 100% is 298, then 90% should be around 268?

Sorry, need my coffee. The 90% charge is the projection to 100% limit (Tessie still allows you to move the slider and it goes the maths)

 

[Steen2000]

Did you read this post ( MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc in all, and did you look at the link with Zoomits picture?
If not, here it is:
(Crossed out to make sure it wont slip out as true again)
Note Zoomits note [*Based on just one guy’s intuition]
View attachment 843859


It looks like you describe, but it is home made and there is no research behind those curves. They are not true.
If they where true my battery would almost need replacement by now due to low SOC often

This is exactly the graph i was thinking about. Thanks !!.
It confirms I guess that my aim to stay between 25-30% to 50-55% is a good idea

 

[AAKEE]

This is exactly the graph i was thinking about. Thanks !!.
It confirms I guess that my aim to stay between 25-30% to 50-55% is a good idea

Are you kidding? That graph is not valid.

 

[AAKEE]

Any US M3P 2021 or 2022 driver around, who is using Android based Scan My Tesla?

I would like to know what your cars maximum Current (Amps) is, when accelerating through 50-60mph.

European (Panasonic) cars stop at 1240 Amps and only increase slightly above that, when the SoC is getting very low.

I just charged to 85% at home, holidays over so need to go to the (new) work.
Stopped at a few relatives so I had the chance to try the amphs.

I still read about 1315-1320A as the top value, batt temp was 34C.

 

[Steen2000]

Is this the right thread to ask about the LFP battery?
Here in my country Tesla Y standard range LFP has just been launched significantly cheaper than the LR (apprx 14.000 usd difference).

I wonder what experience is now with the LFP? People says everyday range is almost like LR at it can .... even should be charged to 100% without more degradation. True or false?
I mean now that it has been around for a while, how does it look with regards to degradation?

I love my M3LR but can sell it 1,5 years old around se price as a new Y std range .

 

[AAKEE]

I wonder what experience is now with the LFP? People says everyday range is almost like LR at it can .... even should be charged to 100% without more degradation. True or false?

If you look at the charts at teslalogger.de you can se degradation charts for different tesla including lfp cars.

LFP batteries also degrade from calendar aging. They have very small degradation from big cycles so they is not sensitive to charging to 100% feom that prespective.

But still, they most probable degrade from standing with high SOC as LFPs have been before.
It looks like the degradation curve is flatter and as cycles should cause very little wear the most part of the degradation we see is probably calendar aging.

The most right part show how LFP did behave from calendar aging. The new versions probably do the same but hopefully to a lesser degree. Maybe the
Calendar aging is half compared to the picture?

 

[reystar]

It's just different with Pro's and Con's...

Since you didn't mention charge/discharge performance I am gonna mention it here:

• The LG's discharge power is in average about 20kW below the Panasonic. We did some direct comparisons here. It is important to translate the post, as there are a lot of sidenotes to this comparison. Worth noting is, that the LG has a higher voltage curve at low SoC, so it gets faster below 20'ish% SoC.
• The LG's DC charge curve does not have a 250kW plateau as the Panasonic. In some scenarios you will wait up to five minutes longer with the LG pack.

Not scientific, but it is notable that the LG packs still show a very high rated range. Even with high mileage, high DC charge and parked long times at high SoC. The Panasonic gained the nickname "Diva", because even though its initial capacity is higher, it tends to punish the drive with rapid decrease in capacity (mostly calibration, not degradation). This can be:

• Daily charge limit above 60%.
• DC charging of any kind 20kw or 250kW...doesn't matter.
• Same daily charge limit, without being able to sleep at any other SoC state.

I'd say, being so resistant to user behaviour is quite a relevant upside for the LG.


Only on paper...

• The Panasonic's start at 78-80kWh when delivered in average, but rapidly drop to 75-78kWh.
• The LG's start at 77-78kWh and climb up to 79,3kWh within a couple of months. They then stay at 77-79kWh for quite a long time.

I should re-emphasize the word "usually". There are exceptions to this with both packs. In general they have basically the same capacity and on the long run you might see more range with the LG.

Panasonic is NCA and the LG is NMC. Both chemistries will degrade faster if charged above 60-70% daily and kept there for longer durations, even worth if stored in a hot environment (@AAKEE 's chart looks spot on to me!). Above around 95% it gets especially damaging as this is when the voltage curve increases exponentially.

Still, the LG doesn't seem to care about this as much as the Panasonic. One user I will not name is charging his LG 5L with solar and he admits that, when there is excess energy in the evening, he allows the car to go to 100% and keeps it there for days. This is something that makes my skin crawl. The thing is, he regularly posts his rated range in the forum and his car is mostly in the top 1% of the list.
My LG 5L had its highest measured capacity right after a long trip with several supercharger stops. The Panasonic would probably be at it's lowest and in need of weeks of 60% limitation to "regenerate" (or relax from all the "stress") ;-)

Personally: I think the LG 5L is great battery pack, but in a Performance model I would prefer to have the Panasonic.

Do we know if M3P uses the same battery with MYP (from Berlin) ?