MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[Korgmatose]

Tell me again how I get 580 km when the 100% charge only ever shows 549...

 

[AAKEE]

Tell me again how I get 580 km when the 100% charge only ever shows 549...

You wont see 580.

Tesla use the EPA range as the base for the kilometer rating im the screen. If you have a 2021 LR you’ll se around 540-550 as thats the range on the EPA constant with the LG battery or the panasonic capped to about 75kWh.

You have full range with 549km

The WLTP range is not shown on the screen, which is good as the WLTP range is long from the real world.

 

[MrHopsing]

Yep, we get this question daily in the Norwegian Tesla group on Facebook. People should start by reading the manual, it is clearly stated there.

From the European Model 3 owners manual:

 

[eivissa]

Tell me again how I get 580 km when the 100% charge only ever shows 549...

This topic has been discussed several times and apparently still keeps confusing Tesla drivers.

The long range is advertised in the United States with a range of 353 Statute Miles / 568km according to the EPA testing. This is based on the unrestricted 77.8kWh Panasonic battery.

In Europe (until and including Q1/2021) the long range was delivered with the LG battery and a restricted version of the 77.8kWh Panasonic battery. Both have around 75kWh of usable capacity.

The difference in capacity between the US and EU long range is roughly 3.7%

568km - 3.7% = 547km

That is roughly what a current Q4/2020 and Q1/2021 long range will show you at 100% SoC (since SW 2020.48.12.1).

 

[OttoR]

The Q2 Long range with the 82kWh will most likely not be software locked. Certainly not in the EU and I wouldn't know why they would start with that nonsense in the states.

The LG battery pack was the only reason Tesla locked the old 79' Panasonic pack. Since the LG is history, there is no need to limit the new cars at all. They are advertised at the higher range in Europe and sold at the old price. Good for people who waited for this change, which was predicted for a long time!

Customers who bought a long range in Q1 have no reason to complain. They bought a car with EPA 353 miles / WLTP 580km and that's what they got.

Except if the LG battery is not only at a lower capacity, but also have other less desirable behaviour. If the Panasonic is a better battery all together; the residual value of the LG cars might turn out to be lower.
The same the other way around. If the Panasonic battery proves to be a worse battery than the LG even though it has a higher capacity initially.

Range is one thing, but how these batteries compare on e.g. charging speed; cold weather performance or degredation,

As a customer you had no decision in which battery to get. But actually there have been delivered two destinctively different cars.
If it would have been something that people actually better understand; it would have caused much more of an issue.

Only time will tell.

 

[eivissa]

Except if the LG battery is not only at a lower capacity, but also have other less desirable behaviour. If the Panasonic is a better battery all together; the residual value of the LG cars might turn out to be lower.
The same the other way around. If the Panasonic battery proves to be a worse battery than the LG even though it has a higher capacity initially.

Range is one thing, but how these batteries compare on e.g. charging speed; cold weather performance or degredation,

As a customer you had no decision in which battery to get. But actually there have been delivered two destinctively different cars.
If it would have been something that people actually better understand; it would have caused much more of an issue.

Only time will tell.

The era Q4/2020 and Q1/2021 must be perceived very differently by Model 3 Long Range customers in the states vs. the European Union.
In the states we saw how Tesla intended this transition and who their "prime customer base" is, if things dont go according to plan!
The EU ended up picking the short straw, which is not great, but the alternative would have been to get way less cars (Long Range) delivered overall.

The idea must have been what we saw in the US, a gradual transition from 2170C cells to 2170L cell technology:

• Model 3 SR+ / LR / P is first released to the market with Panasonic 2170C cells in two sizes (50kWh / 78kWh)
• 2021 P with 2170L (82kWh) is released to the market in Q4/2020.
• 2021 LR with 2170C (78kWh/unrestricted) is released to the market in Q4/2020.
• 2021 SR+ with 2170C (50kWh) is released to the market in Q4/2020.
• 2021 SR+ with 2170L (55kWH) is released to the market in Q1/2021.
• 2021 LR with 2170L (82kWh) is released to the market in Q2/2021.
• From Q2/2021 the transition from 2170C to 2170L is complete acrosst the fleet.

In the EU it went differently:

• Model 3 SR+ / LR / P is first released to the market with Panasonic 2170C cells in two sizes (50kWh / 78kWh)
• 2021 P with 2170L (82kWh) is released to the market in Q4/2020.
• 2021 LR with 2170 LG (75kWh) is released to the market in Q4/2020. Not enough capacity for more 2170C packs -> LG Chem steps in.
• 2021 LR with 2170C (75kWh/restricted) is released to the market in Q4/2020. Restriction to balance the capacity with the LG Battery.
• 2021 SR+ Made in China with CATL LFP Pack is released to the market in Q4/2020. Not enough capacity? -> GF Shanghai steps in.
• 2021 SR+ with 2170L (55kWH) is released to the market in Q1/2021.
• 2021 SR+ Made in China with CATL LFP Pack is back on the market in Q2/2021. New focus on LFP in the SR+ from now on.
• 2021 LR with 2170L (82kWh) is released to the market in Q2/2021.
• From Q2/2021 the transition from 2170C to 2170L is complete. SR+ stays on LFP and made in China.

Once the Performance Refresh was out and proven to have a real 82kWH battery pack, this should have sounded the alarm, that the Long Range in the EU wasnt getting the attention (love?) it should have gotten by Tesla. The Long Range Q4/2020 and Q1/2021 wasnt the car it could have been.

The COC's sent by Tesla painted quite a clear picture about the expected capacity in the Long Range actually:
2020 LR -> 160Wh/100km -> 560km WLTP
2021 LR -> 148Wh/100km -> 580km WLTP
An increased efficiency of 8%, but only a range increase of 3,6%? -> Smaller usable capacity / smaller battery!
Knowing that a 82kWh battery pack existed in the Performance should have been a red flag for someone waiting for the new and improved Model 3 Long Range. There was no doubt, that eventually the 82kWh battery pack would be released to the Long Range as well. Now we know the date: 01.April.2021.

Regarding the Q4/2020 and Q1/2021 Long Range battery in the EU and its advantages, disadvantages, choices...

• An unsatisfied customer could have returned the car or not accepted the papers. We just saw this again, when people in Germany refused the last built Q1/2021 LG cars out for delivery in Q2, knowing that cars produced just one day later all got the larger 82 Panasonic battery.
• Tesla could have played it smarter and openly communicated that there are two different cars coming to the market. That they both have their advantages and giving the customer a choice.
• You could look at it like chosing between a petrol and a diesel car.
• The LG (NMC) has expectional performance with a cold battery pack and at low SoC.
• The Panasonic (NCA) is faster at DC fastcharging.
• None of the two showed unusual degradation so far and we all know how much attention is paid by the Tesla community on this topic!

In the end I dont see a point in complaining about the European Long Range from Q4/2020 and Q1/2021. It was obvious that this wasnt the car at its full potential and also that the "full blown" / 82kWh Long Range / Maximum Range / Long Range Plus was just around the corner. On the other hand...people who bought early, got to enjoy more time with the car.

There is never the perfect moment to buy, but right now is a very good one

 

[coder77]

The era Q4/2020 and Q1/2021 must be perceived very differently by Model 3 Long Range customers in the states vs. the European Union.
In the states we saw how Tesla intended this transition and who their "prime customer base" is, if things dont go according to plan!
The EU ended up picking the short straw, which is not great, but the alternative would have been to get way less cars (Long Range) delivered overall.

The idea must have been what we saw in the US, a gradual transition from 2170C cells to 2170L cell technology:

• Model 3 SR+ / LR / P is first released to the market with Panasonic 2170C cells in two sizes (50kWh / 78kWh)
• 2021 P with 2170L (82kWh) is released to the market in Q4/2020.
• 2021 LR with 2170C (78kWh/unrestricted) is released to the market in Q4/2020.
• 2021 SR+ with 2170C (50kWh) is released to the market in Q4/2020.
• 2021 SR+ with 2170L (55kWH) is released to the market in Q1/2021.
• 2021 LR with 2170L (82kWh) is released to the market in Q2/2021.
• From Q2/2021 the transition from 2170C to 2170L is complete acrosst the fleet.

In the EU it went differently:

• Model 3 SR+ / LR / P is first released to the market with Panasonic 2170C cells in two sizes (50kWh / 78kWh)
• 2021 P with 2170L (82kWh) is released to the market in Q4/2020.
• 2021 LR with 2170 LG (75kWh) is released to the market in Q4/2020. Not enough capacity for more 2170C packs -> LG Chem steps in.
• 2021 LR with 2170C (75kWh/restricted) is released to the market in Q4/2020. Restriction to balance the capacity with the LG Battery.
• 2021 SR+ Made in China with CATL LFP Pack is released to the market in Q4/2020. Not enough capacity? -> GF Shanghai steps in.
• 2021 SR+ with 2170L (55kWH) is released to the market in Q1/2021.
• 2021 SR+ Made in China with CATL LFP Pack is back on the market in Q2/2021. New focus on LFP in the SR+ from now on.
• 2021 LR with 2170L (82kWh) is released to the market in Q2/2021.
• From Q2/2021 the transition from 2170C to 2170L is complete. SR+ stays on LFP and made in China.

Once the Performance Refresh was out and proven to have a real 82kWH battery pack, this should have sounded the alarm, that the Long Range in the EU wasnt getting the attention (love?) it should have gotten by Tesla. The Long Range Q4/2020 and Q1/2021 wasnt the car it could have been.

The COC's sent by Tesla painted quite a clear picture about the expected capacity in the Long Range actually:
2020 LR -> 160Wh/100km -> 560km WLTP
2021 LR -> 148Wh/100km -> 580km WLTP
An increased efficiency of 8%, but only a range increase of 3,6%? -> Smaller usable capacity / smaller battery!
Knowing that a 82kWh battery pack existed in the Performance should have been a red flag for someone waiting for the new and improved Model 3 Long Range. There was no doubt, that eventually the 82kWh battery pack would be released to the Long Range as well. Now we know the date: 01.April.2021.

Regarding the Q4/2020 and Q1/2021 Long Range battery in the EU and its advantages, disadvantages, choices...

• An unsatisfied customer could have returned the car or not accepted the papers. We just saw this again, when people in Germany refused the last built Q1/2021 LG cars out for delivery in Q2, knowing that cars produced just one day later all got the larger 82 Panasonic battery.
• Tesla could have played it smarter and openly communicated that there are two different cars coming to the market. That they both have their advantages and giving the customer a choice.
• You could look at it like chosing between a petrol and a diesel car.
• The LG (NMC) has expectional performance with a cold battery pack and at low SoC.
• The Panasonic (NCA) is faster at DC fastcharging.
• None of the two showed unusual degradation so far and we all know how much attention is paid by the Tesla community on this topic!

In the end I dont see a point in complaining about the European Long Range from Q4/2020 and Q1/2021. It was obvious that this wasnt the car at its full potential and also that the "full blown" / 82kWh Long Range / Maximum Range / Long Range Plus was just around the corner. On the other hand...people who bought early, got to enjoy more time with the car.

There is never the perfect moment to buy, but right now is a very good one

Based on what you wrote, is it guaranteed that I would get a M3 LR with an 82 kWh Panasonic battery if I were to order now in US?

 

[eivissa]

Based on what you wrote, is it guaranteed that I would get a M3 LR with an 82 kWh Panasonic battery if I were to order now in US?

No. There are no guarantees as long as the Model 3 LR is advertized with 353 miles of range. There is a chance that there is still one production line with 78kWh packs for the US market, but it is very very unlikely.

As soon as the advertized range is increased in a similar amount as the battery size increases (3-4kWh / 5% / in the US) you have a guarantee. This should be in the ball park of 370 miles.

Every LR coming to the EU with production date from 1st of April is the 82kWh version with the higher WLTP of 614km / COC electrical range 640km. No LG and no old 78kWh Panasonic.

 

[ElectricChapel]

How can UK customers identify the battery their car has? Preferably before delivery? Unfortunately we don’t get a COC as far as I’m aware.

 

[conv90]

Yes you all are right about the constants should be less than 158 -159 because this constant is calculated using ALSO the buffer:
example : ~80,1 kWh (including buffer) / ~506 km (rated) = ~158,3 Wh/km
If I use the usable remaining ( 76,5) / 506 = 151 Wh/km so I'm about correct .
really curious to see the Real constants on old LR AWD, because with my old 2019 Awd I was able to match the km made with km "used" at 147-148 Wh/km.

 

[AAKEE]

As I told you last week, all better values I had in my old LR 2019 on Nominal Ful Pack was in Winter .
My Performance 2021 start to worrie me.
Started at 79,6 continued to be 79,6 ...went to 79,7 - 79,8 -79,9 then decreased to 79,6 again.
Charged to 100% went to 80,1 kWh and just the time to be at 90% 20 minutes later, and it was again 79,6 . Here in Italy we are at 20°C during the day.
Today it is 79,5kWh
Im start to believe that I had a "unlucky" E3LD
BTW, Sliding the cursor on App (as better reading during the day) I see 505 km.
Only 1500 km odometer and I had delivery 19 march 2021 so it's 40 days old

How do your charging schedule look?
charge to...% ? Daily or at a certain SOC?
Charge at home? Do it sit outside or in a garage ?

I would guess theres only minor differences for the cells depending on what day they was manufactured and otherwise theres a extremely low probability thar one can be unlucky with all 4416 cells. So I guess the difference we see comes either from the climate, temperatures/season or charging habits. Probably both ?

I have som experience with lithium batterys from before and for the quality brands my experience is that they perform very like if bought at different times. Very small differences, so small they can be neglected. I guess its the same for these packs.

 

[coder77]

No. There are no guarantees as long as the Model 3 LR is advertized with 353 miles of range. There is a chance that there is still one production line with 78kWh packs for the US market, but it is very very unlikely.

As soon as the advertized range is increased in a similar amount as the battery size increases (3-4kWh / 5% / in the US) you have a guarantee. This should be in the ball park of 370 miles.

Every LR coming to the EU with production date from 1st of April is the 82kWh version with the higher WLTP of 614km / COC electrical range 640km. No LG and no old 78kWh Panasonic.

I see. So hopefully it is a matter of a few weeks to update their website then. I wonder if there is a procedure with EPA holding them back from announcing the extended range. Do you think it is likely that you get a 82 kWh battery but be software locked forever since the car was never advertised to have the extended range?

 

[conv90]

How do your charging schedule look?
charge to...% ? Daily or at a certain SOC?
Charge at home? Do it sit outside or in a garage ?

I would guess theres only minor differences for the cells depending on what day they was manufactured and otherwise theres a extremely low probability thar one can be unlucky with all 4416 cells. So I guess the difference we see comes either from the climate, temperatures/season or charging habits. Probably both ?

I have som experience with lithium batterys from before and for the quality brands my experience is that they perform very like if bought at different times. Very small differences, so small they can be neglected. I guess its the same for these packs.

Not a real schedule on charging. I have only 1500 km . Usually if at about 40% I think: " maybe today or tomorrow I have to charge it".
I have no way to charge at Home (I'd have the way... but basically im still afraid my dog eats the cable...the dog is eating all ...)
I can tell you all my charges: I had the car with 40% at delvery, returning at home I charged at the local V3 supercharger to 80 or 90% and returned home to home with 2 or 3% less.
Then usually when near 40% I decide where to charge: Usually I charge with Supercharger for 10 minutes (just to be fast and charge a good amount ) then I finish with AC adding some kWh to be at 60 %or 70 or 80%. (the local V3 Supercharger has 4 destination charging too in the same parking lot)
I tried to charge only in AC but I can't stay hours... but only two times I charged from 25-30% to 55-60%.
I tried only ONE time from 10% to 95% at Supercharger, then I finisgìhed to 100% (and the additional time ) to balancing.
The last time I charged, I charged in AC from 25% to about 60%.
Now Im at 35% and I have to decide what to do today or tomorrow.
Covid changed my habits, so Sometimes I do 10 little trips of 6 or 7 km , sometimes 4 trips of 15 km , sometimes I do not use it at all , sometimes only 10 km to drive my daughters to school, and sometimes only out of my home at the morning and back in home the evening whithout even using it.
I have my car in my fenced property, but it stay Outdoor with a little cover on it.
So, nothing special, nothing dangerous nothing harmful.
This Battery like to stay at 79,6 Nominal full Pack . (0,1-0,2 more or less).

It' s only 1500 km , like i made 3 full cycles.. of 503 km
Perfect : 1508 km 240 kWh 159 Wh/km
it's like 3 ~80 kWh full pack.

 

[eivissa]

How can UK customers identify the battery their car has? Preferably before delivery? Unfortunately we don’t get a COC as far as I’m aware.

The UK is a wildcard now. If you have the car you can have a look at the battery sticker or connect ScanMyTesla to find out.
Regarding cars on order...if I observed it correctly the current delivery's are as follows:

• SR+ Made in China with CATL LFP 55kWh
• LR Made in China with LG Chem NMC 75kWh
• P Made in USA with Panasonic NCA 82kWh

Difficult to say what happens next.

• Will they ship the Panasonic 82kWh to China and continue production there?
• Will LG release an upgraded battery as well with similar capacity?
• Will production for the UK go back to the united states?
• Will they wait it out until GF Berlin is up and running?

Do you think it is likely that you get a 82 kWh battery but be software locked forever since the car was never advertised to have the extended range?

Also another "very unlikely"!

• The whole reason for the softlock is over now, with the LG retiring in the Model 3.
• EU customers who ordered in March and April ordered a 580km WLTP car and are receiving (according to the COC) cars with 640km electric range.
• Efficiency also slightly better with 147Wh down from 148Wh (/100km).
• They are getting a higher range than they ordered.
• Also these cars can't be softlocked, just confirmed by doing the maths.
• Range increase of 60km is 10% increase.
• Efficiency increase is just below 1%.
• 9% needs to come from increased battery capacity.
• 75kWh + 9% = 82kWh (rounded up ;-) )

This is no final proof, but the numbers all point to the logical answer of an uncapped 82kWh battery pack.
Same as in the Performance where it wasn't capped either. Also for the reason, that there was no competition by a smaller battery pack (LG).

 

[ElectricChapel]

The UK is a wildcard now. If you have the car you can have a look at the battery sticker or connect ScanMyTesla to find out.
Regarding cars on order...if I observed it correctly the current delivery's are as follows:

• SR+ Made in China with CATL LFP 55kWh
• LR Made in China with LG Chem NMC 75kWh
• P Made in USA with Panasonic NCA 82kWh

Difficult to say what happens next.

• Will they ship the Panasonic 82kWh to China and continue production there?
• Will LG release an upgraded battery as well with similar capacity?
• Will production for the UK go back to the united states?
• Will they wait it out until GF Berlin is up and running?

The Glorious Leader ship coming to the UK in a couple of days with Model 3s Made in China is even more interesting now.

 

[Jibjab]

The Q2 Long range with the 82kWh will most likely not be software locked. Certainly not in the EU and I wouldn't know why they would start with that nonsense in the states.

The LG battery pack was the only reason Tesla locked the old 79' Panasonic pack. Since the LG is history, there is no need to limit the new cars at all. They are advertised at the higher range in Europe and sold at the old price. Good for people who waited for this change, which was predicted for a long time!

Customers who bought a long range in Q1 have no reason to complain. They bought a car with EPA 353 miles / WLTP 580km and that's what they got.

My December build LR has never displayed the 353 EPA range unfortunately.

 

[OttoR]

...

Regarding the Q4/2020 and Q1/2021 Long Range battery in the EU and its advantages, disadvantages, choices...

• An unsatisfied customer could have returned the car or not accepted the papers. We just saw this again, when people in Germany refused the last built Q1/2021 LG cars out for delivery in Q2, knowing that cars produced just one day later all got the larger 82 Panasonic battery.
• Tesla could have played it smarter and openly communicated that there are two different cars coming to the market. That they both have their advantages and giving the customer a choice.
• You could look at it like chosing between a petrol and a diesel car.
• The LG (NMC) has expectional performance with a cold battery pack and at low SoC.
• The Panasonic (NCA) is faster at DC fastcharging.
• None of the two showed unusual degradation so far and we all know how much attention is paid by the Tesla community on this topic!

In the end I dont see a point in complaining about the European Long Range from Q4/2020 and Q1/2021. It was obvious that this wasnt the car at its full potential and also that the "full blown" / 82kWh Long Range / Maximum Range / Long Range Plus was just around the corner. On the other hand...people who bought early, got to enjoy more time with the car.

There is never the perfect moment to buy, but right now is a very good one

That the car would become better; that's obvious. That should however not validate a company to deliver another product without informing their clients and have them choose.

If at any given time you order a hamburger at McDonald's; you want a hamburger. And not a vegetarian burger that tastes almost the same. If given the choice you might have said: Fine, vegetarian burger is good. But now they didn't tell you; and you can't replace the part you have allready eaten.

In my case; if I refused/returned the car for a new one; it instantly would become more expensive due to changing tax regulations per 1 Jan 2021.

But worse. Tesla did not inform their clients of the difference. Even today they don't tell / acknowledge there is a different battery in the car and what the impact of that is.
The only way to learn about this is through fora like this and getting under your car searching for a sticker.

I don't know what battery I have been delivered and can’t tell wether it performs better or worse in cold weather, or supercharging speed is impacted unless I really make an effort and start logging data and compare with others.

 

[eivissa]

My December build LR has never displayed the 353 EPA range unfortunately.

• Based on your profile you are based in the UK.
• The Long Range in the UK, even today, is advertised with 360 miles of range WLTP.
• 360 miles is 580km WLTP, so the same range advertised as in the EU until Q2/2021.
• That range is based on a 75kWh battery.
• The cars rated range indication is based on the EPA consumption, but calculates with its actual battery capacity.
• The 353 miles EPA are based on a 78kWh battery.
• In a best case scenario you car can therefore only display around 339 miles.
• 4% less than a US model, due to 4% less capacity.

 

[Ofarlig]

Is there a way to look at your VIN to see what battery the car has? Or can we already be 100% sure that the 614 km WLTP cars being delivered now June are the 82 kWh Panasonic battery?

 

[AAKEE]

Is there a way to look at your VIN to see what battery the car has? Or can we already be 100% sure that the 614 km WLTP cars being delivered now June are the 82 kWh Panasonic battery?

There seems to be a pattern in which the Long Range E5D LG stopped production on the last day in March 2021 (Q1) and was fully replaced by E3LD Panasonic 82kWh (Q2).

View attachment 655932

According to eivissas data, 943XXX and higher should be quite safe.