MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[EV Promoter]

I would have a question : How can it be possible that value of "nominal full pack" is higher than "full pack when new". I was thinking that it was the contrary.
And it's hard to understand too, fluctuations of value of battery degradation. Of course we have a different constant, it seems that SMT adjust some values of parameters by calculation and not reading.

I don't think SMT does nothing else than read the BMS. Full pack when new is simply a number that has been set when loaded. If the voltage of the cell has been changed, as it appears, the actual nominal will reflect the change.
Same it does apply to "degradation" which is not an actual degradation measurement, but a comparison btw actual and rated (full pack when new) capacity: the sense of a negative degradation is in these terms.

 

[EV Promoter]

Bjørn N did the 100% M3P 2021 on SuC in the last livestream of 2020. and nominal full / remaining kept creeping up to 80.6kWh when charging was still running at 1-3 kW for almost 30 minutes

When i tried to SuC at 100% with my E5D LG, it did the same thing, creeping at 3-1 kW for at least 40-45 min. at 100% on the UI of the car, slightly moving up of 1 km the range, recalculating at the least 3 times. I could'nt wait more than those extra minutes and i've aborted the charge.

 

[EV Promoter]

Hi,

I definitely would like to get the 580km that Tesla is advertising, are we collecting information that could be used to hopefully get to that level? In any case, I have a better picture now, so Type BB (P) 1104423 00 P (if I am reading it properly). I can probably get a better shot tomorrow during day time, but hopefully this is good enough.

You get 580 km if you keep a consumption of 130 Wh/km (Average 47.5 km/h at 23°, no heating, no A/C, according to WLTP testing proc.)
But if you mean to see it as rated range in the car, no, you will not. Is it Tesla that decide what max range to suggest as a realistic average.
And the WLTP 580 km doesn't make any sense, at the least the Tesla value is just a bit more realistic (if you stay below a max occasional speed of 90 km/h).

 

[EV Promoter]

New increase in range on the EU LR 2021 - E5D - LG Chem NMC811 battery.

The sequence by now is:

- Original update, 535 km, 74.2 kWh Nominal, Constant 139.5 Wh/km, Degradation 0.40%
- 2020.48.12.1, 545 km, 74.6 kWh Nominal, Constant 137.0 Wh/km, Degradation -0.13%
- 2020.48.26, 549 km, 74.9 kWh Nominal, Constant 136,6 Wh/km, Degradation -0.54%

PS: notice the silly 48.26, with an empty plaza available on screen, the trip window hide part of the car. Not talking about the rest. Fire that UI team.

View attachment 622027 View attachment 622028 View attachment 622029

It seems that LG's gotten another increase in capacity but the datas are few, perhaps the German friends here can add details and ask to the users:

- Update unknown, 560 km, 75.6 kWh Nominal, Constant unknown, Degradation -1.48%

Übersicht 2021 LR / P Batteriekapazität Fahrzeugschein

 

[TimothyHW3]

It seems that LG's gotten another increase in capacity but the datas are few, perhaps the German friends here can add details and ask to the users:

- Update unknown, 560 km, 75.6 kWh Nominal, Constant unknown, Degradation -1.48%

That is hardly possible, it charged to about 4.2V before. Probably previously it just reported falsely 74.9kWh and now it reports more correctly.

If that's the case, how can Tesla claim the same 353-mile range on both batteries? The larger one clearly should have more. Or the other less. Wish my car has the Panasonic, but no idea how to tell.

It seems that these two batteries apply to Europe only, too little data.
What is your 100% range in kms or miles - charge to 100% and post a screenshot in miles or km and we can figure it out.

Also the Panasonic battery is soft locked to the LG capacity, but they still have less capacity than cars sold as 2020 models.
Tesla Model 3 - 2019 LR AWD vs 2021 LR AWD

 

[khelge]

We have absolutely no indication that the E3D panasonic batteries are the old panasonic. The only thing we see is that it seems softlocked and that it charges WAY slower than the old 2020 LR batteries. If it was the old battery they should charge at the same speed, no? Unless tesla have butchered the charge speed as well just to make it match LG. So the LR panasonic batteries remain a mystery

 

[Devils son]

We have absolutely no indication that the E3D panasonic batteries are the old panasonic. The only thing we see is that it seems softlocked and that it charges WAY slower than the old 2020 LR batteries. If it was the old battery they should charge at the same speed, no? Unless tesla have butchered the charge speed as well just to make it match LG. So the LR panasonic batteries remain a mystery

Or the slower charge speed is for safety reasons and the software does not distinguish between the two versions.

 

[Acxxu]

Update:

Model 3 Performance in Europe, variant E3D, version Pp2s5N, VIN 8365xx series (car has all new features, including new headlights).

In +1'C and only 527km on the odometer, it showed 498 km/309 miles as the range at 100% (it was still trickle charging at the SC, not fully complete).

I've now acquired the cable and the Scan My Tesla -app. I just set the Tesla Wall Charger to charge the car to 100% over the night. Here's a 'screenshot' of SMT in -16'C (says full rated/ideal range as 496 km). SMT seems to report the 82.1 kWh pack?

What else would you need if anything?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Update:

Model 3 Performance in Europe, variant E3D, version Pp2s5N, VIN 8365xx series (car has all new features, including new headlights).

In +1'C and only 527km on the odometer, it showed 498 km/309 miles as the range at 100% (it was still trickle charging at the SC, not fully complete).

I've now acquired the cable and the Scan My Tesla -app. I just set the Tesla Wall Charger to charge the car to 100% over the night. Here's a 'screenshot' of SMT in -16'C (says full rated/ideal range as 496 km). SMT seems to report the 82.1 kWh pack?

What else would you need if anything?

It reports your nominal full pack at 80.1kWh. Ignore the 82.1kWh for now. It may represent the actual initial nominal capability of the pack but literally no one has that capacity unlocked. That value of 82.1kWh is the same for every such specific pack type, regardless of its actual initial capacity. Likely if your battery were warmer (it is only 9C) it would register 80.6kWh when full. Or so. Hard to say without warming it up and charging to 100%. There is variability on initial capacity but I would say the average result does seem to be around 80.6kWh.

Again, 82.1kWh is a “hard coded” value. Keep in back of mind, but ignore it.

I think the only other desirable thing would be to confirm you have the -0L- pack with a battery pack picture as linked to and described above. You almost certainly do - there has only been one documented exception on a P, so far.

 

[TimothyHW3]

WAY slower than the old 2020 LR

Way slower? No, I think about 2 Minutes 10-80% at best.

Also 80% on old is around 78% on the new sooo

 

[JCtx]

Hey guys, have 2 charging questions. One is what is the charging rate of the 2 rear USB-C ports; does anybody know? Hope 1A, but need to know. And the second is when car is connected but not charging (already at the stated limit, which is 80% in my case), and you turn on climate control, which also activates the battery heater (making a racket), how do I know if it's pulling power from the plug or the battery? I checked the car, and the screen was off. And the light on the charging port was solid green. When it's charging, it's BLINKING green, right? Just wanted to know. If it's not pulling power from the wall, makes no sense to leave it connected once fully charged, right? Thx.

 

[TimothyHW3]

how do I know if it's pulling power from the plug or the battery?

You can test it by leaving it on for 10 minutes and see if it drops the state of charge.

I have tested this, but was inside the car. Should be the same locked with preheating. It pulls it from the grid and it shows you how much kW it is pulling.

 

[Korgmatose]

Pre-heating from app will draw power from the socket even while not charging. Up to max what the on-board charger can pull.



First image shows car heating cabin and battery.
Second shows spike of about 11kW in power draw on the mains.

 

[Onkl_stwart]

We have absolutely no indication that the E3D panasonic batteries are the old panasonic. The only thing we see is that it seems softlocked and that it charges WAY slower than the old 2020 LR batteries. If it was the old battery they should charge at the same speed, no? Unless tesla have butchered the charge speed as well just to make it match LG. So the LR panasonic batteries remain a mystery

That is weird. I charged my E3D from 24-72 % yesterday and got 136 kW at a peak, and for a long time >130 kW. Think it was still charging around 90 kW at ca. 70 %. Good enough for me at least.

 

[TimothyHW3]

90 kW at ca. 70 %.

90 kW at 70% is unlikely, but closer to, 85kW is probable. Like I said, from my limited tests so far, the E3D does indeed charge slower, but not by much. Not "way slower" like the quoted post. The E5D is slower though, by quite a lot.

You can check these two charging curves I filmed, they are more or less the perfect charge curve on a 150kW charger (Tesla or Non-Tesla), I reach close to 150kW.

Try to write down the SOC and kW on the next trip and see how it fares. I think I have about 75-75.5kWh in that video, so the SOC % on your E3D should be similiar if not exact to my old car. I don't think you will be able to see these speeds in the winter in Europe, but you might get close to those speeds.

 

[Onkl_stwart]

Slower than? Before?

Was pretty cold outside as well.

 

[AAKEE]

I just found my battery degradation go down from 1.83% to 1.71% in SMT. Nominal full pack went up from 80.6 to 80.7kwh.
Has 2000km on the odo. Didnt think I would se the degradation go down, and nominal up.
Its parked in my garage and the same temp within 0.5 C.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Nominal full pack went up from 80.6 to 80.7kwh.
Has 2000km on the odo. Didnt think I would se the degradation go down, and nominal up.
Its parked in my garage and the same temp within 0.5 C.

You are paying far too close attention to this. Particularly at first, I would expect some adjustments, maybe even upwards. And a 0.1kWh change is within the rounding error anyway.

You have about 0% degradation, FWIW. Not 1.7%. There are a couple of reports with people with 81.4kWh, but their batteries may have been warm or particularly good (there's always variation on brand new batteries - they aren't all the same). Normal seems to be about 80.7kWh - that seems to be 0% degradation from the "82.1kWh" starting point (normally that value matches the approximate starting capacity, but not for this specific battery pack, for unknown reasons). (For example, the 77.8kWh Full Pack When New packs normally started around 77.8kWh, but some people started with over 78kWh, some people started with closer to 77.5kWh, etc. Just a random distribution as you would expect.)

You can rest assured that in general, you will see degradation over time. I'd expect at least 4-5% after a year or two. But we'll see - everyone has a different result! Some people do better, some people do worse.

 

[Filip K]

I got my OBD cable and I tried to charge the E5D LG pack to 100 % (or charge complete) on my 11 kW AC wall box. What is very interesting that the battery resistive heaters (via front and rear stators) were running about 50 % of charging time, when SoC > 70 %, at 7 kW of Joule heating. It has a very bad impact on charging efficiency η around 0.7 (impact on charging costs). Are you also experiencing this issue on other battery packs?

See cell temp 40 °C (104 °F) on a home AC charger (no schedule, clima off). Does anybody know why the hell they heat the battery to this temperature on AC slow charging?

Telemetry

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I got my OBD cable and I tried to charge the E5D LG pack to 100 % (or charge complete) on my 11 kW AC wall box. What is very interesting that the battery resistive heaters (via front and rear stators) were running about 50 % of charging time, when SoC > 70 %, at 7 kW of Joule heating. It has a very bad impact on charging efficiency η around 0.5 (impact on charging costs). Are you also experiencing this issue on other battery packs?

See cell temp 40 °C (104 °F) on a home AC charger (no schedule, clima off). Does anybody know why the hell they heat the battery to this temperature on AC slow charging?

Telemetry

They're probably very concerned about lithium plating with this new cell so they're not taking any chances. It's quite irreversible, so why risk it right now, when they're just trying to fully validate a pack from a new vendor?

It could also just be a software bug, if lithium plating is not a concern at 15-16C, where it started, before engaging the heater. I thought that for relatively low charge rates it really should not be a problem until close to 0C. You can see the BMS Max Charge value (looks like the maximum amount of charge power the battery can accept) far exceeds the available power at all times, so it seems like it really shouldn't need to warm the battery.

Interesting data though. Interesting how cell voltage doesn't get all the way to 4.2V. But there's no data on that value when nothing is running (heater was running pretty hard) so hard to say what the open-circuit voltage would be. Maybe it's actually 4.2V.