MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[AAKEE]

Can it be true that a BMW battery (BMW i3) degenerate much less than a Tesla battery? Isn't a battery a battery as AKEE also stated above?

I dont know anything about the i3 battery.

All Batteries degrade.

Tesla use NCA chemistry, which is good
to withstand time. Better than NMC( thats the main chemistry for EV).

As time causes more wear than cycles, NCA seems like a very good choise.
NCA can do about 750-1000 cycles or so, if used from 100% to 0% and loose 20% capacity. Thats 300.000km or more. And if smaller cycles is used, they can handle way more.

As different car manufacturers ise different ways to show the battery capacity there need to be special arrengements to look at the (true) degradation and remaining capacity before any direct comparison can be done. The number of led bars in a Nissan Leaf can not be compared to range in a Tesla, I think.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I will not have 10% degrdation after three years, if no other things change.

We’ll see. As I said, I think it is likely that with your use scenario and charging habits that you’ll be on the low side.

As long as we are playing a lottery, I’ll guess that you’ll be at 7.5%, 470rkm, at the three-year mark. Above average!

big differences due to that we get an average from 4416 cells in a M3 LR.

Sure, but remember cells coming off of a production line are correlated in time. It’s pretty easy to churn out slightly substandard material that still works. I’m sure there is some small variability in these cells over time. Can’t be too large, of course - safety is important.

I am not sure in research what they do, but it would be hard for them to identify changes in cells vs. time of manufacture. And if it’s say just 10-15% of cells in certain batches which don’t perform as well over time, then chances are they wouldn’t see them for the particular cells they choose to test. And of course, all results would be normalized to the initial capacity in such tests.

This is all speculation - I’m in full agreement with your proposed methods for minimizing capacity loss - they seem well grounded in data, theory, and your experience. But I’m just saying that it is hard to say with high confidence whether that would have helped some people to avoid substantial capacity loss.

 

[Steen2000]

I am about to buy but get in doubt because of learning about the degeneration etc.
It this good? 6 mth old / 6.000 2021 T3 LR (e3ld)

561 km

 

[OlaM]

I take delivery in Norway in one week, the car left Shanghai Oct 21. My invoice says the variant is MT321, which I gather is the Panasonic 82 / BT42 / E3LD. Can that be right?

 

[AAKEE]

I am about to buy but get in doubt because of learning about the degeneration etc.
It this good? 6 mth old / 6.000 2021 T3 LR (e3ld)

561 km

I think 567km is the ”When new value”.

First of all, the app doesnt always reflect the 100% charge range, at least in my car.
So despite 561km in the app it might be a higher value in the car, if charged to full.

Second, 561km is fine! No problems, and congratulations to the E3LD M3 LR!
Very good buy!

 

[Steen2000]

I think 567km is the ”When new value”.

First of all, the app doesnt always reflect the 100% charge range, at least in my car.
So despite 561km in the app it might be a higher value in the car, if charged to full.

Second, 561km is fine! No problems, and congratulations to the E3LD M3 LR!
Very good buy!

Thank you AAKEE, cant wait now. Fly to munich Monday to get it

 

[AAKEE]

I take delivery in Norway in one week, the car left Shanghai Oct 21. My invoice says the variant is MT321, which I gather is the Panasonic 82 / BT42 / E3LD. Can that be right?

I think all model 3 coming from Shanghai has LG Batteries now.
Theres a new LG battery, 5L(code E5LD), which is about 79kWh and probably all cars will have this soon.

I guess no Panasonic is used anymore, nit even in the Model 3P. The only version that actually did get the Panasonic 3L was the M3 Performance until recently when the LG 5L battery was approved.

 

[OlaM]

I think all model 3 coming from Shanghai has LG Batteries now.
Theres a new LG battery, 5L(code E5LD), which is about 79kWh and probably all cars will have this soon.

I guess no Panasonic is used anymore, nit even in the Model 3P. The only version that actually did get the Panasonic 3L was the M3 Performance until recently when the LG 5L battery was approved.

Yeah that was what I expected from following this thread the past month. Registration details should show up before the weekend, I'll be sure to update.

 

[Bouba]

I think all model 3 coming from Shanghai has LG Batteries now.
Theres a new LG battery, 5L(code E5LD), which is about 79kWh and probably all cars will have this soon.

I guess no Panasonic is used anymore, nit even in the Model 3P. The only version that actually did get the Panasonic 3L was the M3 Performance until recently when the LG 5L battery was approved.

On your previous post you talk about charging your battery to 90% in a hot country is detrimental. So, can you charge to 55% in the summer but still charge to 90% in the winter?
And what is more important to the battery degradation, age or mileage ?
Thank you

 

[AAKEE]

On your previous post you talk about charging your battery to 90% in a hot country is detrimental. So, can you charge to 55% in the summer but still charge to 90% in the winter?
And what is more important to the battery degradation, age or mileage ?
Thank you

Well, first of all: theres not a problem with charging to 90%. The calendar aging comes from the time at *SOC*.

At lower temps the degradation is less at the same SOC. So your assumption is correct, or actually I think the best way to put it is that you should avoid high SOC for long time, specially at elevated ambient temps. Se attached picture.

Initially( first couple of years), calendar aging is dominant.
The research tell us that calendar aging lessens with time, by the inverse of the square of time. This means, that for the same usage the amount of degradation from time during the first year will need four years to double. If the first year causes 5%, it will take about four year to reach 10%.

If the car stands with > 60% for most of the time, the degradation for the first year probably will b e around 5% If the ambient temps is ”normal”.
The cyclic aging during one year for normal driving might be 0.5 to 1% or maybe 2-3%, depending on the Depth of discharge and miles driven.
It will take a few years until the cyclic aging it the dominant part.

 

[Bouba]

Well, first of all: theres not a problem with charging to 90%. The calendar aging comes from the time at *SOC*.

At lower temps the degradation is less at the same SOC. So your assumption is correct, or actually I think the best way to put it is that you should avoid high SOC for long time, specially at elevated ambient temps. Se attached picture.

Initially( first couple of years), calendar aging is dominant.
The research tell us that calendar aging lessens with time, by the inverse of the square of time. This means, that for the same usage the amount of degradation from time during the first year will need four years to double. If the first year causes 5%, it will take about four year to reach 10%.

If the car stands with > 60% for most of the time, the degradation for the first year probably will b e around 5% If the ambient temps is ”normal”.
The cyclic aging during one year for normal driving might be 0.5 to 1% or maybe 2-3%, depending on the Depth of discharge and miles driven.
It will take a few years until the cyclic aging it the dominant part.

View attachment 738716

Thank you for that. So, what is best is not to charge until just before using. So start the charge at about 6 am for a normal morning commute.

 

[conv90]

Well, first of all: theres not a problem with charging to 90%. The calendar aging comes from the time at *SOC*.

At lower temps the degradation is less at the same SOC. So your assumption is correct, or actually I think the best way to put it is that you should avoid high SOC for long time, specially at elevated ambient temps. Se attached picture.

Initially( first couple of years), calendar aging is dominant.
The research tell us that calendar aging lessens with time, by the inverse of the square of time. This means, that for the same usage the amount of degradation from time during the first year will need four years to double. If the first year causes 5%, it will take about four year to reach 10%.

If the car stands with > 60% for most of the time, the degradation for the first year probably will b e around 5% If the ambient temps is ”normal”.
The cyclic aging during one year for normal driving might be 0.5 to 1% or maybe 2-3%, depending on the Depth of discharge and miles driven.
It will take a few years until the cyclic aging it the dominant part.

View attachment 738716

I always appereciate your explanations and I think you are real guru on Lithium Batteries.
What I don't understand is that from your graph it seems that ambient temp is much more important than SOC at which the car sleeps.
From the graph (different than this: MASTER THREAD: Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health ) it seems that it's better 10 °C ambient temp and let it sleep at 100% than a 40°C ambient temp with 20% rest SOC.
In addition the two graphs seems differents (this one and the one in the link).

 

[Bouba]

I’m certainly going to change my charging habits because of what AAKEE says

 

[Apprunner]

I've learned a lot from this thread and AAKEE has some great insights and data to support his best practices for battery longevity. I'm still a little unclear about why we have to keep the battery above 20% for health. Above 55%, it seems there is more calendar aging but below 20%, is there also more calendar aging? If not, why is 20% the general rule of thumb? Is there additional stress going under 20% during charging?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

 

[conv90]

I've learned a lot from this thread and AAKEE has some great insights and data to support his best practices for battery longevity. I'm still a little unclear about why we have to keep the battery above 20% for health. Above 55%, it seems there is more calendar aging but below 20%, is there also more calendar aging? If not, why is 20% the general rule of thumb? Is there additional stress going under 20% during charging?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

AAKE said there is no problem going under 20% SOC.
The only downside is not to be able to use Sentry and that if too low SOC , the 12V can be discharged easily. in my opinion this limit is 6 -7% letting the car in very cold climate during a full night

 

[Matt3M3]

Hello guys, im an Italian man so sorry fo my English but I have to say you had helped me a lot here and I read in more or less 1 month all this thread!

I have just bought a M3 LR with E5LD battery only 10 days ago. I thought until yesterday that my battery was the 82 kWh of new LG.

With some surprise I saw some message where the nominal full pack battery is 79! This explain why my ABRP show me 78.7 kWh!
in terms of battery range when I put 100% I can see from 555km to 569km.

In addition, I saw a new pdf update where the ”purple” LG battery for Q4 is 79 kWh!

i hope my info can help you (with more expertise) to Know what is going to happen… where are the LG E5LD battery with 82 kWh?! Hahaha

 

[conv90]

Hello guys, im an Italian man so sorry fo my English but I have to say you had helped me a lot here and I read in more or less 1 month all this thread!

I have just bought a M3 LR with E5LD battery only 10 days ago. I thought until yesterday that my battery was the 82 kWh of new LG.

With some surprise I saw some message where the nominal full pack battery is 79! This explain why my ABRP show me 78.7 kWh!
in terms of battery range when I put 100% I can see from 555km to 569km.

In addition, I saw a new pdf update where the ”purple” LG battery for Q4 is 79 kWh!

i hope my info can help you (with more expertise) to Know what is going to happen… where are the LG E5LD battery with 82 kWh?! Hahaha

Read the code on the D.2 paragraph on the registration card " Libretto".
And Yes the E5LD was supposed to be near 80.00 kWh.

Here to be sure
:

 

[Matt3M3]

Read the code on the D.2 paragraph on the registration card " Libretto"
Here:
View attachment 739024

Thanks for your reply! As you can see I have E5LD… I posted a piece of VIN just if it can help us to understand better

 

[Apprunner]

I was also reading that if you don't charge regularly to 3.92V/cell, you can have SEI buildup on the anode. So perhaps charging to 60% is the best option?

BU-808b: What Causes Li-ion to Die?

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

 

[conv90]

Thanks for your reply! As you can see I have E5LD… I posted a piece of VIN just if it can help us to understand better

Nothing wrong with the new E5LD battery. It seems the capacity will grow up to 79 or even 80 kWh in the first 1000 km of use.
@eivissa has some SMT screen of new E5LD equipped Model 3.