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MASTER THREAD: Comprehensive Road-Course Modification Guide — Optimizing the 3 for the track

Alignments for track!

I know this has been discussed, but wanted to revisit now that we have had quite a lot of time to get our cars out there. By the pyrometer I have settled on around -4F and -3R for camber with 0 toe front and about .1* in rear. I find this to be most neutral, but still can push a bit under power. I have thinking of making a radical bump to -5 in the front and keeping the rear where it is as in some testing I was doing this weekend at Mid Ohio on a different AWD car I saw very positive gains with a similar approach.

What are you guys happy with?

My setup:
MPP sport coilovers
UP FUCA
All MPP bearings/rear arms
MPP rear subframe lock down
MPP sway bars
MPP Partybox
255 40 18 Yoko A052
 
Alignments for track!

I know this has been discussed, but wanted to revisit now that we have had quite a lot of time to get our cars out there. By the pyrometer I have settled on around -4F and -3R for camber with 0 toe front and about .1* in rear. I find this to be most neutral, but still can push a bit under power. I have thinking of making a radical bump to -5 in the front and keeping the rear where it is as in some testing I was doing this weekend at Mid Ohio on a different AWD car I saw very positive gains with a similar approach.

What are you guys happy with?

My setup:
MPP sport coilovers
UP FUCA
All MPP bearings/rear arms
MPP rear subframe lock down
MPP sway bars
MPP Partybox
255 40 18 Yoko A052
You are running a much more narrow tire than most others that are tracking seriously so you're probably going to need significantly more camber than someone running 275+ tires. Are you trying to stay in a certain class with the 255? I am at -3.7F -3.2R on 275 Sur4g's

If you are happy with you are based on pyrometer readings I doubt you'll get a better suggestion from someone here on the forum. Everyone should strive to find their own optimal camber based on pyro readings and tire wear, so I'd say your ahead of most people.
 

MountainPass

Active Member
Global Vendor
Mar 2, 2018
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Toronto, Canada
Car looks great and this is great info. Where did you happen to find the OEM Performance rear sway bar rate?

When purchasing sway bars, I made a comparison chart of the aftermarket options. If the OEM P bar is about 103 lbs/in, this makes me realize the MPP rear bar is actually pretty similar to UPP. I'm sure they would tell us the actual spring rate because they're awesome.

Tube diameter (mm)Spring rate (lbs/in)Increase in stiffness from LR AWD non-P
OEM front296500
OEM rear16400
OEM P rear19.6103256%
UPP front31.8740-107514%-65%
UPP rear22.2114-150285-375%
UPP comp25>150>375%
MPP front32741-83214-28%
MPP rear22112-130 or (44-51)280%-325% (9-27% advertised
The MPP figures aren't accurate at all, they look like the off-the-shelf Eibach dimensions! You also need to factor in wall thickness as well as diameter, as two bars with the same diameter can still be different stiffnesses.
 
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Most on MPP arms, some, like me, are on UP.
-4 to -5 degrees on MPP arms!? I can't get -3 on the new ones without going below 360mm hub to fender ride height.

The MPP figures aren't accurate at all, they look like the off-the-shelf Eibach dimensions! You also need to factor in wall thickness as well as diameter, as two bars with the same diameter can still be different stiffnesses.
Good to know. Ignore my chart then. I have conflicting information on what the OEM spring rate is and when the aftermarket advertises % stiffness from OEM, it's hard to know which bar it's compared to.
 

MountainPass

Active Member
Global Vendor
Mar 2, 2018
1,788
3,718
Toronto, Canada
-4 to -5 degrees on MPP arms!? I can't get -3 on the new ones without going below 360mm hub to fender ride height.


Good to know. Ignore my chart then. I have conflicting information on what the OEM spring rate is and when the aftermarket advertises % stiffness from OEM, it's hard to know which bar it's compared to.
Not with ours - we would have to give up compression travel to move the balljoint inboard any further!
 
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MountainPass

Active Member
Global Vendor
Mar 2, 2018
1,788
3,718
Toronto, Canada
Is that because of the adjuster up top on the KWs?

I can probably get ~4.5 degrees @ 366ish mm fender-hub rideheight with RW arms at stock caster. They are a royal PIA to adjust though.
The rebound adjustment on the damper is on the top of the shaft like most dampers! I have to say that I love adjusting our arms, but that's because we try to design things that don't make us mad 😁
 

Mash

Active Member
Supporting Member
Nov 10, 2019
1,233
1,074
Prague
-4 to -5 degrees on MPP arms!? I can't get -3 on the new ones without going below 360mm hub to fender ride height.
I switched to UP to be able to fix my crooked caster and it allows more camber as well, but I haven't seen a tire yet, that required -4 front camber for performance reasons on m3.

It was also annoying to be unable to dial precise camber, but it's just an OCD. MPP was lighter, easier to adjust, cheaper to buy and nuts were not rusting.
 
Team,

Me and my M3P are signed up for a 2-day performance driving course on 9-10 Oct! There Is a Supercharger about 20 minutes away from the track and they confirmed available 240v outlets.

Current mods:
-MPP Comfort Adjustables
-MPP FUCAs
-MPP Rear Camber and Toe arms
-MPP Master Cylinder Brace
-MPP Compression Rod Bushings

Last Successful AutoX Alignment:
-F: ~3.1 Camber, 0mm Toe
-R: ~2.1 Camber, 1.5mm toe out
-Placed 6/15 PAX, 4/15 RAW, on all-seasons.

Stuff sitting in my garage:
-MPP SS Brake Lines / RBF600 fluid
-6-Piston Brembo front BBK (370mm)
-UP Rear Anti-Sway bar
—(To bring handling balance a hair forward and help offset the softer Comfort coils. It might be a bit heavier than I need so I expect I’ll want to experiment with zero rear toe or even adding some rear toe-in, plus a more neutral or even forward Track Mode bias).

Stuff in the mail:
-19x9.5+22 wheels
-275/35R19 Federal 595RS-Pros

Planned starting alignment:
-F: ~3.1 Camber, 0mm Toe
-R: ~2.5 Camber, 0mm Toe
-Rear UP Anti-sway bar on its softest setting.

Any other setup tips? I have been eyeballing the MPP rear motor cooler given how many times I have seen my rear motor displayed in orange during just AutoX or even driving around on a hot day. Do I not need to worry about that for now?

Thanks!

@MountainPass @MasterC17 @tm1v2 @Sam1@gearchruncher @dsgerbc @Motion122 @SK360 @dfwatt @TacoSteve

I have been toying around with damper and rear UP bar settings. I am still refining before I report specific damper settings, but for daily street use I have been seeing positive results with rebound substantially stiffer than compression (~6-10 clicks stiffer), with the UP anti-sway bar on the full stiff setting. I have also gone to 0mm rear toe from ~1mm rear toe-out (0mm front)

My anecdotal performance benefit comes from the 270-degree, decreasing-radius off-ramp in my commute that has some decent bumps and undulations on the back end. On H&R coils and “Ultra High Performance” all-seasons, I could exit the corner at around 53mph before it got uncomfortable (perhaps pushing at 80-85%). With the MPP Comfort Adjustables at the same ride height and baseline (~9/9) settings, that speed went up to about 55-56mph at the same comfort level. Cranking down the compression toward the softer end while leaving rebound toward the stiffer end has improved compliance during that rough section, while the rear UP bar on its stiffest setting seems to help compensate for some body roll. This morning I exited at 57mph with still noticeably more stability—and definitely more traction available—than before at lower speeds. I suspect I could do 58-59 with the same relative security as before.

PLUS, the softer compression impressively smooths out my local rough roads. I thought I was content with the H&Rs, but I am SO glad I splurged for these Coilovers.

Note: this is with 2 degrees camber F/R, and 0mm toe all around.

I am going to run my next AutoX this weekend with I expect close to full-stiff rebound and a few clicks softer on compression. I recently took a sporty road trip on my 200tw 595RS-Pros (275/35R19) and on hard turns over uneven surfaces felt a tendency for the suspension to “bind and release” which I felt was representative of not enough rebound damping. (That led to the recent suspension experimentation).
 
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I have been toying around with damper and rear UP bar settings. I am still refining before I report specific damper settings, but for daily street use I have been seeing positive results with rebound substantially stiffer than compression (~6-10 clicks stiffer), with the UP anti-sway bar on the full stiff setting. I have also gone to 0mm rear toe from ~1mm rear toe-out (0mm front)

My anecdotal performance benefit comes from the 270-degree, decreasing-radius off-ramp in my commute that has some decent bumps and undulations on the back end. On H&R coils and “Ultra High Performance” all-seasons, I could exit the corner at around 53mph before it got uncomfortable (perhaps pushing at 80-85%). With the MPP Comfort Adjustables at the same ride height and baseline (~9/9) settings, that speed went up to about 55-56mph at the same comfort level. Cranking down the compression toward the softer end while leaving rebound toward the stiffer end has improved compliance during that rough section, while the rear UP bar on its stiffest setting seems to help compensate for some body roll. This morning I exited at 57mph with still noticeably more stability—and definitely more traction available—than before at lower speeds. I suspect I could do 58-59 with the same relative security as before.

PLUS, the softer compression impressively smooths out my local rough roads. I thought I was content with the H&Rs, but I am SO glad I splurged for these Coilovers.

Note: this is with 2 degrees camber F/R, and 0mm toe all around.

I am going to run my next AutoX this weekend with I expect close to full-stiff rebound and a few clicks softer on compression. I recently took a sporty road trip on my 200tw 595RS-Pros (275/35R19) and on hard turns over uneven surfaces felt a tendency for the suspension to “bind and release” which I felt was representative of not enough rebound damping. (That led to the recent suspension experimentation).
I ran this setup in AutoX today!

Having had no other experience with competition tires on the street, the 595RS-Pros are awesome. They aren’t too loud for the 3-hour round trip to the race location (I probably wouldn’t daily them, though), didn’t get greasy as they got hot, and let go very predictably and with a lot of aural warning.

I was actually getting more understeer than I expected at 0.5mm rear toe out (compared to 1mm rear toe out and the factory rear bar on all-seasons), though I did step up to ~2.4 degrees rear camber in anticipation of a loose rear end from the bar.

I am very happy that the UP rear bar at full stiff provides a noticeable reduction in body roll but doesn’t change overall handling balance so significantly to require any of the bandaids I was worried I’d need. Now I can still continue tweaking damping, camber, and toe within normal ranges to get more or less rotation, but am happy with the body control I am getting between the bar and MPP comfort dampers.

For my next Road Course track day I will probably start with a similar setup, perhaps even with 0mm rear toe to bring handling bias a little further forward since I won’t be dealing with these tight turns and it will probably be a little safer until I get used to driving near the edge at higher speeds.
D0347688-9D73-4FF0-8992-52A2A373351B.jpeg
 
Last edited:
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You are running a much more narrow tire than most others that are tracking seriously so you're probably going to need significantly more camber than someone running 275+ tires. Are you trying to stay in a certain class with the 255? I am at -3.7F -3.2R on 275 Sur4g's

If you are happy with you are based on pyrometer readings I doubt you'll get a better suggestion from someone here on the forum. Everyone should strive to find their own optimal camber based on pyro readings and tire wear, so I'd say your ahead of most people.
Gridlife Street class dictates I cannot run more than 255 tread width.
 
I switched to UP to be able to fix my crooked caster and it allows more camber as well, but I haven't seen a tire yet, that required -4 front camber for performance reasons on m3.

It was also annoying to be unable to dial precise camber, but it's just an OCD. MPP was lighter, easier to adjust, cheaper to buy and nuts were not rusting.
Drive harder? lol Mine definitely require at least that.
 

Sam1

Active Member
Sep 11, 2019
1,728
1,820
NV
Doing a cross post in here in case someone is looking for a good deal on a full setup for the track if anyone is looking for a one-stop purchase.

 
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Posting this here, as some on this thread might have experience with this: I just put my track/autox tires in the car, to bring to a place to have them mounted. One of them rubbed up against the headliner when I was putting it in the car through one of the rear doors, and left black tire smudges on the headliner by the door. Can anyone recommend how to clean those off? I don't want to do the wrong thing and make it worse.
 
Posting this here, as some on this thread might have experience with this: I just put my track/autox tires in the car, to bring to a place to have them mounted. One of them rubbed up against the headliner when I was putting it in the car through one of the rear doors, and left black tire smudges on the headliner by the door. Can anyone recommend how to clean those off? I don't want to do the wrong thing and make it worse.
Taken care of. Maguire's all purpose cleaner and a microfiber cloth.
 

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