-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021
- Thread starter Adirondack_D
- Start date
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No, I didn't.
Which is why I bought FSD back when it was 3k because I was pretty sure they'd need to add some, and that I'd get it free if I'd already bought FSD.
And hey, guess what happened? Exactly what I expected. Free HW upgrade.
In fact, anybody with a Model 3 ought to have already known this.
Because by early August 2017 Tesla had already gone through one HW upgrade cycle already from the original AP2 to AP2.5, and already said if it turned out better HW was needed for any FSD owners, those owners would get upgraded for free.
To my knowledge that information pre-dates anyone getting a Model 3 delivered to them other than Elon himself and a few dozen employees (who presumably already knew, since even those first 3s had 2.5 in them, not 2)
And now we're more than halfway through 2021, and the same thing remains true for all those HW2.x cars.
They can buy FSD, just like they always could have, and get the free HW upgrades.
But they're not eligible for the new subscription service. Only those with HW3 in their cars are.
Everyone should have known this... Except Tesla? This was so obvious that it was common knowledge that no customer should have missed, but somehow, it was OK for Tesla to continue saying "All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver." because they didn't yet realize it, and even called out the model 3 by name?
I mean, your argument boils down to “meh, everyone knew Tesla was lying, so caveat emptor.”
The inconsistency of blaming the customer for believing what was said by a company, in plain English, while holding the company to zero accountability hurts my head. Even crazier that you think it's an effective defense of Tesla's behavior instead of realizing that you're effectively arguing that Tesla went from making a mistake to committing fraud by continuing to say something they knew was not true. For years.
I think you just made me realize that Tesla may be liable for treble damages, given their active, continuing advertising of something they knew to be untrue.
Also, gonna need a source on that 2017 statement, because here's Elon in 2019 saying it, but I can't find a 2017 source (which is actually good for Tesla). Why would it be a rumor in 2019 when HW3 was announced if they had made it so clear in 2017 that everyone knew it?
Last edited:
CapeOne
Active Member
@Knightshade seems to feel that even though everyone who purchased a car back then was told that it included the "hardware needed for FSD", the statement should now only apply to those who purchase FSD even though that wasn't a requirement for the car having "hardware needed for FSD." If you don't want FSD or only want an FSD subscription, I guess you deserve to have been duped in his mind.
linux-works
Active Member
ah, the infamous tucker carlson defense.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
He's probably talking about the offer to upgrade HW2.0 to HW2.5 for free back in 2017.
Direct quote from Tesla spokesperson:
"However, we still expect to achieve full self-driving capability with safety more than twice as good as the average human driver without making any hardware changes to HW 2.0. If this does not turn out to be the case, which we think is highly unlikely, we will upgrade customers to the 2.5 computer at no cost."
Tesla has a new Autopilot '2.5' hardware suite with more computing power for autonomous driving
Tesla has been equipping all its vehicles produced since October 2016 with a “supercomputer” as part of its Autopilot 2.0...
electrek.co
Note, Elon also tweeted about HW3 (wasn't called that yet at the time) being replaced for free for FSD owners back in 2018 (but not for those that didn't buy FSD, in fact the person asked how much it would cost for those that didn't pay for FSD):
Last edited:
linux-works
Active Member
lol. forgot about that oldie.
and yet, modern intel, when confronted with the (now somewhat old, as well) spectre and meltdown bugs, they did NOT replace chips. instead, they hobbled your chips mostly by disabling hyperthreading (and some other performance boosts). I'm not aware of intel really owning up to this one and replacing any hardware or paying a single cent for their crime.
linux-works
Active Member
I guess being in software and knowing a tiny bit about the field, I didn't expect tesla to deliver on the L5 promise, not within the lifetime of my personal m3.
see, they can't promise something they have not actually DONE before. its like when managers ask you to quote on a project and you've never been in that domain before, so you really have no data points to go on. even if you did, extrapolation is hard.
so, tesla offers the 'bet' to put money down now and hope that in some amount of time, they'll have that feature implemented and you can have it in your vehicle. but it was always a bet and they should have made this more clear. to sw and hw guys, we kind of knew it was a stretch goal (and that's being kind).
some people have a lot of spare cash and either believe in giving elon a free loan, or just outright supporting the cause. there are those people.
there are those that figured the amount they paid was worth a bet.
and then, there are those that took this promise as a real actual promise. at this point and forward, there is really no excuse for anyone buying FSD under any false pretenses. you guys all KNOW its a 'bet' (gamble) now and there should be no tears later if you dont get what you think you should have.
read the contract. there are little to no promises there. you SAW promises but they are not there.
linux-works
Active Member
I meant your purchase agreement. you only get what the agreement says. does not matter what ceo's say or commercials or even transitory websites.
then again, I dont have an ACTUAL printed official copy of mine; I think I saved a pdf of it somewhere when I got the email.
I didn't buy fsd but the language was really loose and anything but firm. I'm not a lawyer but even I could tell that they were making total non-commitments. language blaming 'when regulations allow' mostly, which has nothing to do with THEM being ready and THEIR tech being ready.
to be fair, even when they describe their features, its still not a strong definition. in normal engineering, you create functional specs, then design specs, then implementation specs and even test specs, you KNOW what the hell you have. the wording that tesla uses when selling features is about as dumbed down as you can get. and again, I think its by design that they kept it so vague that you can never nail them on not delivering. they never told you exactly what you would get for 'full self driving'. its not even an industry term! its pretty void of meaning, especially after being abused by tesla for so many years.
but my point is about the lack of language as much as the presence of weasel language. they employed both, to the customer's detriment.
Here's the MVPA: https://www.tesla.com/order/download-order-agreement
(And this is the 2021 version, after they should have learned all these lessons)
Show me where it says that something said on the Tesla website, in writing, is not binding, and only what is in the MVPA is. Show me where it mentions anything about autopilot, or timelines. Then show me where in the MVPA it even says you're getting 4 tires.
It's not some magic contract that covers exactly what you are getting to the exclusion of any other Tesla marketing or messaging.
linux-works
Active Member
I guess I just never (in my life) thought that anything other than pure paper contract (or the modern equiv) is worth anything when push comes to shove.
the pdf you linked to really says nothing about advanced features of the different optional sw packages. the moronic sticker (sic) should give precise line items of the options; it might not describe those options but the names are precise and they must be defined for that model year, at the very least.
again, tesla keeps it very vague; but I would say that it proves my point. where in their wording do they promise the user ANYTHING, really? that IS my point. this 'full self driving' is not defined, never was solidly defined, and anyone who thought they were getting something beyond what was delivered was going on more dream than actual legal promise.
the closest thing I could find to a true feature definition spec is the owner's manual, itself. I guess it should be required that the buyer sign off on the fact that they read enough of it to know what they were buying. hell of a way to do things. but the owner's guide is the ONLY thing I can think of that defines the precise features of YOUR car, in its present form. and that's what you bought. bugfixes, the current feature set and some other things that are just not defined well enough to sue over. be angry over, yes, but not sure you can sue on hurt feelings and broken dreams. (there's a boulevard for that last one, or so I've heard)
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Note the vehicle configuration page on your MVPA will have what options you bought (the linked PDF is not the complete MVPA). There is also a Final Price Sheet. It is the final binding document. The Moroney sticker is known to have errors and is not considered binding. Also what the car comes with on delivery is not necessarily the correct configuration (some have gotten software features for free, and then get it taken a way on audit, and the MVPA is the final say).
Here's an example off google:
This page, which is archived 6th of September 2019
Says
- Coming later this year:
- Automatic driving on city streets
Isn’t that very clear promise of when buyer will receive
“Automatic driving on city streets”?
I don’t have any legal education and english is not my first language. I’m merely saying that you wrote that Tesla has not promised any time frame and I pointed that 2019 they wrote “
- Coming later this year:
- Automatic driving on city streets
And to my understanding it contradicts your “but it doesn't tell you when you will have it.” statement.
BTW, now it says
“
- Upcoming:
- Autosteer on city streets”
promise…
I think the whole point of the FSD subscription is to get you to try it for $200 to draw you in to paying $10,000 for the whole enchilada.
Keith
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Tesla was the one telling people they would get any needed HW upgrades for free if they owned FSD
Since 2017 and the 2->2.5 change.
Then yet again in the very thing you quote on the HW3 change.
It's weird you keep posting sources proving what I say, then insisting I'm wrong.
It's a bold strategy, but it's not paying off
(for you anyway)
I provided one pages ago in this thread. When 2.5 came out Tesla said if it turns out anyone NEEDS it for FSD they'd be upgraded free.
You've been pretty clear that literally no amount of evidence and sourcing is good enough for you though.
That's why there were tons of threads when HW3 was public info about if the same would apply, I was among the group insisting it would and everyone OWNING fsd would get upgraded free, and nobody else would.
TONS of folks were sure that COULD NOT BE CORRECT.
And shocker, it was exactly correct.
It'll be correct for HW4 if that's needed too.
You can keep being mad (about a thing you didn't even buy!) or you can get onboard the knowledge train that's been cruising along for 4 years now.
Your call
Man, sarcasm doesn't come through the internet very well sometimes... he is making fun of knightshade by saying what he thinks knightshade would say about the hardware upgrade argument...
Keith
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
There's 3 groups it makes sense for.
To try it out and see if it's worth 10k to you.
To use it for the occasional road trip once or twice a year.
To have it full time in a car you don't plan to own more than a couple of years.
For anybody who wants the features all the time AND plans to keep the car for 4+ years, buying remains the better choice. Especially if you want the free HW upgrades that come with owning FSD.
So, you have him blocked so you can't see his posts... and you thumbs down every post he makes without reading it?
Keith
I mean, to be fair you can know what gearcruncher is gonna say without actually reading his posts....
Similar threads
