I have been a big fan of Tesla (and Musk) since the Model S had been announced. Finally ordered a Cybertruck on release announcement day and a Model Y early May (no VIN assigned yet). While all the 5 star crash ratings remain intact the Active Safety features are now in question. This change to a Vision based system has caused the NHTSA to remove the Active features from the “included” feature set list for Model 3 and Y vehicles built on or After April 27th 2021. That’s a bummer. They may get restored after retesting is completed but they may also fail. Until then I am most likely putting my order on hold. I do a lot of driving (135 miles 6 days a week), they were a big part of my must have list. I am not interested in these being a “coming soon“ feature. FSD I don‘t care if I need to wait for it to be perfect or if it never materializes but these Active features are non negotiable for me. As a side note, I called my insurance provide yesterday Friday May 28th to inquire. They were not able to provide concrete information without a VIN number but did make it clear to me that the discounts provided for Active Safety features are based on several factors of which one is the NHTSA independent ratings. If they are not present on the vehicle at the time of officially binding the coverage or if they get removed at any time during coverage the Policy would be related accordingly. They suggested this is clearly stated in the binding documents of any policy for any feature a car may or may not have… It would suck if this Move was purely related to the Chip shortage as a work-a-round to continue to deliver vehicles.
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Discussion: Tesla Vision system for Model 3/Y
- Thread starter Mr X
- Start date
Tam
Well-Known Member
Prior to RADAR-less announcement, RADAR-equipped owners have been offered a "button" to download the FSD beta 8.2 but it was delayed to wait for FSD beta 9 which is the pure Tesla Vision with RADAR disabled.
1) Tesla has been able to keep track of all of the hardware variations, HW1, HW2.0, HW2.5, HW3.0, and its combo MCU1, MCU2... Also, during the global chip shortage, it has been able to get additional different chips and write additional programs from them. So, hardware complexities and variations are not a problem for Tesla.
2) Active RADAR module is existing already. Tesla Vision for public release has not, so to simplify the process, Tesla just can leave the active RADAR module alone while the Tesla Vision module is developed to catch up with the RADAR module capability.
Once Tesla Vision has caught up with the existing RADAR module, the RADAR module can be disabled.
It's promised that all cars produced since October 2016 would have all the hardware necessary for autonomous: and Elon Musk said "I really would consider autonomous driving to be basically a solved problem, I think we're basically less than two years away from complete autonomy."
So, in theory, the hardware problems have been solved since 2016. Tesla just upgrades the hardware and software as needed.
oreobbq
Member
If the cameras are exactly the same then I don't see them leaving radar enabled on existing model 3/Ys when Tesla Vision is fully rolled out.
Combining vision with radar that allows the car to see beyond immediate surroundings (and in reduced visibility situations) seems to be a more ideal solution. Sure hope they've done some testing where the cameras are obscured by rain/dirt/mud/fog. Raindrops can really distort images right. What do I know though.
Combining vision with radar that allows the car to see beyond immediate surroundings (and in reduced visibility situations) seems to be a more ideal solution. Sure hope they've done some testing where the cameras are obscured by rain/dirt/mud/fog. Raindrops can really distort images right. What do I know though.
Not exactly sure I understand or could get behind the line of questioning “but what about fog/really bad weather?”. I’d never trust autopilot WITH radar let alone without in horrible weather conditions.
id436eg9045
Member
I think the main concern is with the automatic safety features that are always enabled. Like automatic emergency braking. Which seems pretty important in fog/snow.
Different ones, those are ultrasonic and they aren’t being changed
I mean I guess in a round about way that’s my point. In these conditions I’d really want to take full control myself, and any automatic systems would probably only mess things up.
for reference: I loved my GTI Autobahn and it’s automatic systems (used radar) however I can legitimately only think of one time where it may have helped. I’d also chime in that I had a multitude of false “collision warning!” Errors, normally it would be a specific road with specific grades and or guardrails that the car would trip out on. Thankfully it never applied the brakes automatically, but it scared the hell out of me on the off-chance that it would.
Based on the trash quality "vision" we get from the front camera via the dashcam, I'm not looking forward to this change. Imagine a human trying to drive using the video feed from the front camera. Doesn't give me a lot of confidence given the poor quality. I would think in order to do this right, they'd have to retrofit some better quality cameras... with fewer glare issues.
Mike
Mike
id436eg9045
Member
I've only got amateur experience when it comes to computer vision and machine learning, but I do know that using ML for the training of neural networks doesn't require high resolution images. You can do extremely accurate object recognition with a webcam from the 90s. At a certain point feeding it higher resolution imagery just means unnecessarily increasing your compute needs. The cams look like trash to us because they weren't meant to be used for analysis by human eyes. What we get is a bonus to them being there for their intended purpose.
I do wonder if switching to more sensitive camera sensors could be beneficial for low light conditions. I could even see adding a front IR camera with an IR light somewhere in the headlamp assemblies.
Maybe I should put my order on hold to see how the Tesla Vision thing pans out, PLUS used car prices are still going up for my trade-in AND waiting will increase the chances of getting the federal EV incentive. Thinking of waiting just a little longer and sending an email on June 1st to my SA if I decide to hold.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The feed looks like trash because the output we are seeing is a compressed video through DR limited screens and it's trying to add back in missing color information (due to RCCC filter) which the system doesn't need (but our human eyes like to see). There's a lot more DR in the video feed available than most monitors are able to display. I think the display you are using is most likely 8-bit and not even 10-bit (and a lot of "10-bit" displays are not actually 10-bit, but use dithering to achieve that) and the DR of the image from the video is much higher than that.
HW2.5 capabilities
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I feel that’s a great script for the next South Park episode.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
No one checked yet, but given Tesla told NHTSA it was removed, plus that is what they said in the public statement, I highly doubt they would bother to install a radar.
IronCoffee_Max
Member
Just to be clear - the features are there today in new cars being delivered (as shown by several people on Twitter who got the new cars - and except for lane departure alert), but the NHTSA ratings are removed. Its hard based on your post to see if that’s clear or not. The features themselves are not “coming soon”, but the ratings are. Two separate things.
That said…I agree with you. If I was ordering a new Tesla Model 3 I would wait until they give back all the features at the same level as radar-included vehicles.
Very interesting. Forgot about flir imaging. Just did a quick google search and ended up on Teledyne: Thermal cameras for smarter cars and safer roads.
Do we know if the 3 front cameras are all similar maybe one is an IR cam already.
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