Discussion: Tesla Vision system for Model 3/Y

[Efirebarn]

Sure Willy, "Tesla states...". Full self-driving will be here before the end of year 2016 or whatever it was.

You know - I'm a big Tesla fan. But that doesn't mean I turn off my brain and start parroting ridiculous marketing statements. There are things that radar can see and camera cannot (particularly in low visibility conditions) - it's simply physics, whatever the Tesla sales guys say. That's why they use radar in military installations and not cameras.

The fact remains - we bought and paid for cars with specific safety features, including radar. If Tesla attempts to remove that from the cars we own - they will be in serious trouble, Microsoft may claim they own your Windows (and you're just leasing it) so they can disable features as they want. Tesla has no claim it owns the cars it sold - and it has zero right to disable anything on them.

Edit: And BTW - the guy few pages back was right. Tesla software updates were one of the greatest features, and a great reason to buy the cars. We all were looking forward to the cars getting better over time. But now - they are making people get scared of the next software update, and what it will disable. Looking for ways to turn software updates off. Turning one of the best reasons to buy the car into a reason NOT to buy it. At least when I buy a BMW I know it will always have its radar. It is a really bad move for Tesla, If they have some sense - they will come out and very clearly state that software updates will never disable existing features - otherwise they are simply doing massive damage to themselves.

The OTA updates were one of the things I like about my Model 3 but not for awhile now. With the interface update that shrunk icons and wasting a big chunk of screen real estate for car animation its been a mess. I hope your right about the radar not being removed. I tried my auto headlights the last few mornings on the way to work and I switch to manual after just a few miles, they just are not ready at this point. With all the talk of machine learning and the huge advantage Tesla has over everyone with the logged miles driven I cannot understand why its not better. I just don't see how all that data they have collected is making the car better thru updates recently.

 

[Wheely]

The OTA updates were one of the things I like about my Model 3 but not for awhile now. With the interface update that shrunk icons and wasting a big chunk of screen real estate for car animation its been a mess. I hope your right about the radar not being removed. I tried my auto headlights the last few mornings on the way to work and I switch to manual after just a few miles, they just are not ready at this point. With all the talk of machine learning and the huge advantage Tesla has over everyone with the logged miles driven I cannot understand why its not better. I just don't see how all that data they have collected is making the car better thru updates recently.

When you have been with Tesla for a few years you get to know that most updates don't improve anything and many make the car worse. Still a good car though but I tend not to care for updates and these days intentionally don't give my cars wifi access.

Oh and the machine learning/neural net talk is all nonsense. I have had a model X since 2017 and it still phantom brakes in the same place on my journey to work over all these years and still thinks a wall is a bus. The car is fantastic but I wish Tesla would concentrate on making the cars better rather than chasing some dream of automation they will never achieve and few people actually want.

 

[Willy’sEV]

All good points, lets see what Tesla does.

 

[itsel3ctric]

Sure Willy, "Tesla states...". Full self-driving will be here before the end of year 2016 or whatever it was.

You know - I'm a big Tesla fan. But that doesn't mean I turn off my brain and start parroting ridiculous marketing statements. There are things that radar can see and camera cannot (particularly in low visibility conditions) - it's simply physics, whatever the Tesla sales guys say. That's why they use radar in military installations and not cameras.

The fact remains - we bought and paid for cars with specific safety features, including radar. If Tesla attempts to remove that from the cars we own - they will be in serious trouble, Microsoft may claim they own your Windows (and you're just leasing it) so they can disable features as they want. Tesla has no claim it owns the cars it sold - and it has zero right to disable anything on them.

Edit: And BTW - the guy few pages back was right. Tesla software updates were one of the greatest features, and a great reason to buy the cars. We all were looking forward to the cars getting better over time. But now - they are making people get scared of the next software update, and what it will disable. Looking for ways to turn software updates off. Turning one of the best reasons to buy the car into a reason NOT to buy it. At least when I buy a BMW I know it will always have its radar. It is a really bad move for Tesla, If they have some sense - they will come out and very clearly state that software updates will never disable existing features - otherwise they are simply doing massive damage to themselves.

This is just not aligned to the Tesla model. At some point they will not support both baselines and if you update you will lose radar. The car you bought came with autopilot / FSD and they will claim to provide that feature, rather than describe the components utilized or disabled to provide it.

 

[cardsdoc]

Picked up my new M3 LR yesterday. Already had 1 software update. I’m pretty sure when I first picked it up smart summon was disabled as Tesla has stated. However after the update it is enabled. Sorry if this was known info already as I only looked back a few pages.

 

[YieldFarmer]

Picked up my new M3 LR yesterday. Already had 1 software update. I’m pretty sure when I first picked it up smart summon was disabled as Tesla has stated. However after the update it is enabled. Sorry if this was known info already as I only looked back a few pages.

Summon or Smart Summon?

Are you on 18.2 or 18.3?

Summon has always been on my radar-less car (since I got it on .5.10 or .5.11). Smart summon not yet on 18.2

 

[cardsdoc]

Summon or Smart Summon?

Are you on 18.2 or 18.3?

Summon has always been on my radar-less car (since I got it on .5.10 or .5.11). Smart summon not yet on 18.2

Oops. My bad. I didn’t know there were 2 levels of summon. I think it was just the basic summon. Sorry about that.

 

[st_o_p]

This is just not aligned to the Tesla model. At some point they will not support both baselines and if you update you will lose radar. The car you bought came with autopilot / FSD and they will claim to provide that feature, rather than describe the components utilized or disabled to provide it.

First off - I don't believe that is true. If it was - they would have removed radar from Model S and Model X as well. But they didn't - which means they do have software that works both ways - with and without radar. They will have a hard time selling $100K+ car with no radar.

But even if it was true - and the FSD would totally ignore radar - I would be fine with that, for FSD specifically. What I will NOT be fine with is removing it for safety features - like front collision warning. Tesla sold us cars with those safety features - they simply don't have right to remove it. That's like GM or BMW coming to your garage 3 years after car sale and removing parts (radar) from your car. Nobody in their right mind would agree to that - and I can guarantee you there will be lawsuits.

 

[stopcrazypp]

First off - I don't believe that is true. If it was - they would have removed radar from Model S and Model X as well. But they didn't - which means they do have software that works both ways - with and without radar. They will have a hard time selling $100K+ car with no radar.

But even if it was true - and the FSD would totally ignore radar - I would be fine with that, for FSD specifically. What I will NOT be fine with is removing it for safety features - like front collision warning. Tesla sold us cars with those safety features - they simply don't have right to remove it. That's like GM or BMW coming to your garage 3 years after car sale and removing parts (radar) from your car. Nobody in their right mind would agree to that - and I can guarantee you there will be lawsuits.

I think you missed his point. He is saying eventually the software will merge and they will remove the radar usage across the fleet (that's the official line). However, the safety features (including FCW) will remain, because Tesla won't update the rest of the fleet until they get that to "parity". In fact Tesla says FCW is still present in radar-less cars, just waiting for NHTSA and IIHS to do their testing to add back the checkmarks in their ratings. The ones that still need "parity" are the AP features, Smart Summon, and "Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance".

I encourage you to read their FAQ end-to-end, as it talks about all the things you mention.
Transitioning to Tesla Vision

 

[GlockWorkOrnge]

I’m surprised they’re removing the radar hardware before they’ve released Tesla Vision widely. No back up plan, and I would expect some 3/Y owners waiting for new cars might not be happy about that, especially since they’ll lose some functionality for a while.

Or you could be like me---took delivery of a Model 3 two days ago and had no clue they did this or what it meant. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's fine though. Will trust the plan, (1) because there is no choice but to do so and (2) given liability issues, they can't get this wrong.

Musk might talk out of his arse a lot and overpromise, but I doubt they are going to release an inferior and less safe product.

Anyway, love this vehicle and I am looking forward to greater FSD capabilities and perhaps the subscription option (although I am considering just pulling the trigger on the ten grand one time option).

This looks like a great and helpful community and I look forward to interacting with you all!

 

[hellobye]

As far as the cabin camera (spy), I couldn't seem to anger it (eyes closed; turning head away, etc.). I think it's just looking for a warm body in the seat to enable AP.

On my ~400mi round trip, I can't quite figure out the leading cause of nags myself. If you go too long without noted force on steering wheel, the top left fades into blue and the message comes up to apply slight turning force to the steering wheel. Wait too long and the chime comes up.

On the way there, it would nag if I am looking at the screen for a little too long -- seconds -- (have not burned touch screen buttons into muscle memory yet) - an immediate chime and no lead up. Other times it would immediately nag and chime for no apparent reason at all when looking straight forward and applying constant force to the wheel. The nagging was incessant and I lost count.

On the way back, however, I only got the fade into blue and one immediate nag. Driving the same, but maybe a little more muscle memory? I also wore prescription glasses on the route back (no tint). I am wondering if your actions logged to a current driving session defines the sensitivity of the nag for that session?

On another note, Radar-less Y myself... On this same trip I had 5-6 phantom braking events on the highway. In all instances I could recall, there were no lighting issues nor overpass, but transition from asphalt to concrete (or an asphalt patch) and in a few instances construction cones to the side. I also noticed the AP speed dropped from 65 to 45/50 in some of the instances. Did not try any inclement weather, but I did not have issues with auto-high beam on the highways.

 

[Jejunjm]

When you have been with Tesla for a few years you get to know that most updates don't improve anything and many make the car worse. Still a good car though but I tend not to care for updates and these days intentionally don't give my cars wifi access.

Oh and the machine learning/neural net talk is all nonsense. I have had a model X since 2017 and it still phantom brakes in the same place on my journey to work over all these years and still thinks a wall is a bus. The car is fantastic but I wish Tesla would concentrate on making the cars better rather than chasing some dream of automation they will never achieve and few people actually want.

Interesting idea re disable WiFi access. In the past I had read that if you refuse update it will disable features and/or car. Is that false? (Or does it not matter if your car doesn't have WiFi - I think I'll do this...)

So the internal camera doesn't decrease nags? Disappointing. I used comma ai prior to my autopilot radar model 3 and the driver monitoring was good or great. It definitely improved safety imo

 

[st_o_p]

I think you missed his point. He is saying eventually the software will merge and they will remove the radar usage across the fleet (that's the official line). However, the safety features (including FCW) will remain, because Tesla won't update the rest of the fleet until they get that to "parity". In fact Tesla says FCW is still present in radar-less cars, just waiting for NHTSA and IIHS to do their testing to add back the checkmarks in their ratings. The ones that still need "parity" are the AP features, Smart Summon, and "Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance".

I encourage you to read their FAQ end-to-end, as it talks about all the things you mention.
Transitioning to Tesla Vision

That's hilarious. That FAQ contains outright lies. "No. The transition does not affect Model 3 and Model Y crash safety ratings. Vehicles equipped with Tesla Vision retain the same crash safety ratings as vehicles equipped with radar." Maybe one day - but not as of today.

This is simply marketing talk, will be a long way until I accept anything stated there as fact. I don't know how NHTSA tests safety features - would be curious if they do tests in (1.) massive rain, (2.) fog, and (3.) sun blinding cameras and then compare those results to radar-based detection. My bet is they don't do that. You don't need to be rocket scientist to figure out that vision-only will never cover the full spectrum of radar+vision. May cover 98% (and that's a big maybe) - but that edge case will be when you die because you (and the camera) cannot see while the radar can.

On unrelated note - those guys loving the internal spy camera crack me up., Mine is covered - and I don't see letting Tesla spy on me anytime soon.

 

[MP3Mike]

That's hilarious. That FAQ contains outright lies. "No. The transition does not affect Model 3 and Model Y crash safety ratings. Vehicles equipped with Tesla Vision retain the same crash safety ratings as vehicles equipped with radar." Maybe one day - but not as of today.

Crash safety ratings have nothing to do with radar. It has to do with the crumple zones, air bags, seat belts, etc.

 

[Jejunjm]

That's hilarious. That FAQ contains outright lies. "No. The transition does not affect Model 3 and Model Y crash safety ratings. Vehicles equipped with Tesla Vision retain the same crash safety ratings as vehicles equipped with radar." Maybe one day - but not as of today.

This is simply marketing talk, will be a long way until I accept anything stated there as fact. I don't know how NHTSA tests safety features - would be curious if they do tests in (1.) massive rain, (2.) fog, and (3.) sun blinding cameras and then compare those results to radar-based detection. My bet is they don't do that. You don't need to be rocket scientist to figure out that vision-only will never cover the full spectrum of radar+vision. May cover 98% (and that's a big maybe) - but that edge case will be when you die because you (and the camera) cannot see while the radar can.

On unrelated note - those guys loving the internal spy camera crack me up., Mine is covered - and I don't see letting Tesla spy on me anytime soon.

I don't love the spy camera but I carry around a Google phone, own an iPad, have some and have a social media account. Lots of people spying on me already, if it makes my commute safer and easier it might be worth it. (Of course, this is a personal risk benefit calculation that I believe I have thought through).

 

[snikt]

I don't love the spy camera but I carry around a Google phone, own an iPad, have some and have a social media account. Lots of people spying on me already, if it makes my commute safer and easier it might be worth it. (Of course, this is a personal risk benefit calculation that I believe I have thought through).

A lot of Smart TVs have hidden forward facing cameras too you probably don't even know about, they are everywhere

 

[Jejunjm]

A lot of Smart TVs have hidden forward facing cameras too you probably don't even know about, they are everywhere

Exactly. I used to cover everything up, but then I just gave up. And learned to stop worrying and love the bomb

 

[MentalNomad]

From a first principles view it is impossible for a vision only system to match the performance of radar in a situation where the car in front of the car in front of you suddenly hits the brakes. Vision cannot see around the car in front. Radar can.

Yes, RADAR can.

On the other hand, a computer can respond in milliseconds to a visual cue that the car in front of you is slowing. It can hit the brakes in a fraction of the reaction time that a human could... Which is likely enough to avoid 99% of impacts in such instances.

If the car in front of you can stop in time to avoid striking the panic-braking car two cars ahead, then a Tesla can visually stop. If the car in front of you cannot stop in time, it will strike the panic-braking car, creating extra space.

Moreover, as time passes, there will be fewer and fewer panic-braking cars. Panic braking generally happens when someone fails to pay attention and begin braking on time; late braking means panic-braking. As computers take over this task, it will happen less and less often.

 

[epj3]

We took delivery late last week and I've tried vision-only autopilot here and there. The car is absolutely fantastic to drive.

But... I really hope something is wrong with this particular car because autopilot is practically useless. Our chief complaints:

• Randomly will hug and sometimes drive on the left line, even shows so much on the screen
• When cresting a hill with a curve, it takes about a second or more for AP to figure out the road and can be abrupt to correct even on a gentle curve
• If a car clears the lane, it speeds up towards the next car (even when that car is just beyond the set following distance) and only begins to slow about three car lengths away with following distance set to 7 car lengths. I've taken over each time because it's unreasonably close by that point
• Asks me to put pressure on the steering wheel every ten seconds or so, even with my hands on the steering wheel like someone who doesn't trust it
• Sometimes, the pressure required to clear the message actually moves the car without disengaging. Other times, even the slightest thought of pressure causes a disengagement as if you're taking over.
• Never had the "fade into blue" - only a notification near the bottom of the screen before disengaging
• At least a few times, it seems as if the time between the message and autopilot disengaging is impossibly short

I've gone through the steps of re-calibration and will try again before submitting a service request.

 

[GlockWorkOrnge]

When you have been with Tesla for a few years you get to know that most updates don't improve anything and many make the car worse. Still a good car though but I tend not to care for updates and these days intentionally don't give my cars wifi access.

Oh and the machine learning/neural net talk is all nonsense. I have had a model X since 2017 and it still phantom brakes in the same place on my journey to work over all these years and still thinks a wall is a bus. The car is fantastic but I wish Tesla would concentrate on making the cars better rather than chasing some dream of automation they will never achieve and few people actually want.

"...it still phantom brakes." This happened to me using AP on the highway today at 65 MPH. Scared the Hell out of me. I haven't even had the car for a week.

Glad I am not the only one this happens to---I thought I did something wrong.