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Media stop comparing Bolt to Model 3

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Wow. That's quite a history lesson!

GM sold 682 electric cars to the public in 1912. It's is one of the oldest EV makers in the world.
Indeed they are one of the oldest. Along with every other company that was building cars at the time. But that doesn't help GM today, nor does it help us today. Only part that matters is what they've done in modern times.

But the urban legend says GM has done everything possible to destroy the EV.
And.... it is documented and undisputed that GM did exactly that. They spent a ton of money and effort in a concerted (and successful!) effort to stop the CA mandate that the EV1 was responsible for creating. This is as much "urban legend" as Reagan taking the solar collectors off the white house.

After bad information is out there long enough, it becomes reality.

After reading all that you wrote, I can't quite tell what your main point is? Is it that GM received undeserved criticism for terminating it's EV program when - implied by you - all other car makers went about it the same way? ChadS has done a stellar job of filling in some of the details that describes some of the differences. And there are many more. I didn't read about this process. I lived it.

Or is your point that *I* am guilty of spreading this "bad information" that you mention, because I failed to include a complete history of the auto industry in my previous post?

Yes, the GM Impact (modified for the high speed run, and never offered as a production version) went really fast for a few recorded runs. And the engineers involved in designing/building that car were (and are!) fantastic people who have some of their fingerprints in the Tesla DNA today. And I loved my EV1 - as much for what it should have represented as for the experience of "owning" and driving it for a couple of years as our main vehicle.

In your history of GM's unwavering support for EVs, you left out the big parts where their spokespeople proudly told the public (after the EV1 program was terminated) that American drivers don't want hybrids are EVs. They want real cars. And then when the Volt came out (oops, a bit hard to explain), the advertising push was to show how bad BEVs were because of range anxiety that a gasoline-backed Volt didn't have. And now the Bolt... I'm convinced that this car would not be here without Tesla in the mix. And again... that tricky explanation of why BEVs are OK now. The Volt is a good car too, in it's own right. And I all but gushed about it in a public review that was republished by GM before the car's initial release. GM can build cars that people want.... at least when there aren't others in the market. :)

I realize that by refuting your overly positive painting of GM's actions regarding their EV programs that I again start to sound like a hater. But I'll mention again that I am not. I'm just a guy who has some direct experience with how all of these big companies have dealt with EVs in modern times. They've all taken missteps, of course. GM's were by far the most harmful to the transition to electrification of our transportation... directly after GM was the "first and best" - at the forefront of the movement where they could have remained.
 
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I replied to a similar concern from someone else on another thread.

The Bolt EV maintenance probably won't be any more than the Volt which basically just suggests periodic inspections for the first 100,000 miles plus an oil change every 2 years. Except that the Bolt won't need the oil changes.

My 5.5 year old Volt is at 125,000 miles with about 80,000 of those being from battery charging and it's only had 2 dealer oil changes in accordance with the GM maintenance schedule and is still using the original engine air filter. Total out of pocket expense of the oil changes was about $80. I did the inspections myself or got them free when getting a couple software updates.

Meanwhile, the reality is that many Tesla owners are paying Tesla hundreds of $$ per year for regular maintenance inspections. Chevy dealers love doing periodic inspections for money as well without having to do any actual service.

All of the things you see under the hood in the Bolt EV illustrations are also in a Model S today and will be in the Model 3 next year. Tesla just hides them under the black plastic covers around the frunk under the much larger hood area of the Model S. Those parts will also largely come from the same usual global auto parts suppliers used by every other car maker.

What do you imagine is under the Bolt EV hood that isn't going to be located somewhere in a Model 3?

I have a 2015 Volt and have had it for 1 year now. My main concern with Chevy is just from the 1 year of ownership, the dealership has tried to get me to pay over $600 in maintenance that I did not need at all. They are still in ICE mode and it really put a sour taste in my mouth. It wont matter now anyways because ill have a Model 3 soon :p
 
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I have a 2015 Volt and have had it for 1 year now. My main concern with Chevy is just from the 1 year of ownership, the dealership has tried to get me to pay over $600 in maintenance that I did not need at all. They are still in ICE mode and it really put a sour taste in my mouth. It wont matter now anyways because ill have a Model 3 soon :p
Now Tesla will try to get you to spend that money on "maintenance" you don't need.... :)

Four years pre-paid for $2,100 or pay as you go for $2,400.

Service plans

At least it will be going to a good cause.
 
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Trust me, I'm every bit as skeptical of H2 as the next guy, but Toyota are not delusional and they are not stupid. They may well be wrong though.

I agree on both counts, however in my opinion is Toyota is using this as a delaying/diversionary tactic for the regulators. Hydrogen can be derived from Natural Gas, or by passing an electric current through water to split the molecules. Both methods are significantly less efficient then just generating current and charging a battery. The one area hydrogen could be useful would be for storing excess energy from renewable sources on a macro scale, for when the sun isn't shining or the wind blowing.
 
Now Tesla will try to get you to spend that money on "maintenance" you don't need.... :)

Four years pre-paid for $2,100 or pay as you go for $2,400.

Service plans

At least it will be going to a good cause.

I am totally okay with it. My main issue was knowing what I needed done to my Volt yet the dealership seemed to think otherwise. Just last month I was told I "had" to have my brakes "serviced"... $400. Okay, no thanks. Then they make you feel like you killed a baby because you said no.
 
I have a 2015 Volt and have had it for 1 year now. My main concern with Chevy is just from the 1 year of ownership, the dealership has tried to get me to pay over $600 in maintenance that I did not need at all. They are still in ICE mode and it really put a sour taste in my mouth. It wont matter now anyways because ill have a Model 3 soon :p

That's the problem with the independent dealership model. The sooner this model is not "required" the better it will be for the consumer. Taking my car in for service every two years to have the oil in the generator changed is hardly a hassle. But yes, some service departments really try hard to steal from you.
 
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In the eyes of the media, the CCS network is also equivalent to the supercharger network, even ignoring the 1/2-1/3rd charging speed handicap. I wish the success of all EVs, but the Bolt definitely is in the same niche as a Leaf or Spark.

Eh, I don't know if you had it set to free CCS chargers or what, but I see many times what you see in plugshare. CCS are being built quickly, but yeah, they're no replacement for SuperChargers.
 
Tesla and the world would be better off if Tesla had 20% of $n*100 billion ev market than 80% of an $n billion ev market.

Direct the hate to ice instead of other evs. Other good evs that appeal to a wide range of people will be better for all.
 
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Tesla and the world would be better off if Tesla had 20% of $n*100 billion ev market than 80% of an $n billion ev market.

Direct the hate to ice instead of other evs. Other good evs that appeal to a wide range of people will be better for all.

Fully agree. It's hard enough educating the typical ICE driver of the benefits of trying an EV. There shouldn't be EV bashing on an EV forum.
 
I have a 2015 Volt and have had it for 1 year now. My main concern with Chevy is just from the 1 year of ownership, the dealership has tried to get me to pay over $600 in maintenance that I did not need at all. They are still in ICE mode and it really put a sour taste in my mouth. It wont matter now anyways because ill have a Model 3 soon :p
I wonder if having a little "trademark" stamp on the word "soon" could be used, but instead of trademarking the word soon, or any time-related word, it means "by the way, this soon is in Tesla Motors time".

When? SoonTM :)

For the record, while I'm happy to joke about it I don't mind that Tesla has been late (compared to published ETA) with various projects -- yes, the X was frustrating -- but they tend to DELIVER. Lots of companies promise, are late, then don't deliver. I have more patience for Tesla because they make so many correct, strategically brilliant steps in a very complicated, difficult, never-been-done-before arena.
 
I have a 2015 Volt and have had it for 1 year now. My main concern with Chevy is just from the 1 year of ownership, the dealership has tried to get me to pay over $600 in maintenance that I did not need at all. They are still in ICE mode and it really put a sour taste in my mouth. It wont matter now anyways because ill have a Model 3 soon :p

Canada must have different laws and different Chevrolet dealer rules. In 2016, it is illegal for any US auto dealers to fk you, but I believe those laws are at least 40 years old? Then on top of that, GM dealers in the US are required to survey each and every service customer no matter how small an issue. The GM dealer's franchise is based on these reports.

Consequently, my GM service experiences have been very good, better than other brands.

The only brand that tried to seriously fk me was Nissan, and they tried really hard. Blown transmission at 11k miles, refused to warranty, refused to let me look at the transmission, refused to outline damage, and wanted $4500 to repair it. After 3 months and hiring an attorney, it was discovered that the transmission fell apart inside. They did not secure a bolt during assembly. They ended up repairing (not replacing) the transmission under warranty. Rental car, towing, and lawyer fees were about $2500 which I took in the arse. The Nissan was scrapped with 86k on it. Everything fell apart on that POS. Rear axle grinding, engine eating oil, window mech busted, AC heater busted, etc, etc. It was absolutely the worst engineered thing with tires on it I had ever bought new. Chinese bicycles are built better.
 
The only reason most EVs outside Tesla is to meet CAFE standards. They don't REALLY want to move to electric, or even hybrid. They were forced to.

The Bolt might end up being the best non-Tesla option (depends on what Nissan is building in the new Leaf), but I doubt GM is taking it seriously, or rather, they weren't until they saw the Model 3 preorder numbers.
 
"My main concern with Chevy is just from the 1 year of ownership, the dealership has tried to get me to pay over $600 in maintenance that I did not need at all."

I own a Sprinter van and ran into the same dino mentality. The dealership wanted me to change the oil every 3000 miles, because "That's what we do with diesels." I pointed out that the van had an oil monitoring system and the suggested interval was 10-15K. He insisted that MB had no idea what they were doing. Last time I went to the dealership for anything other than warranty work.
 
The only reason most EVs outside Tesla is to meet CAFE standards. They don't REALLY want to move to electric, or even hybrid. They were forced to.

The Bolt might end up being the best non-Tesla option (depends on what Nissan is building in the new Leaf), but I doubt GM is taking it seriously, or rather, they weren't until they saw the Model 3 preorder numbers.

And that will never change. People who hate General Motors, will always think the worst of them. This is not unique to GM, or even cars.

All brand-specific enthusiast boards have members who can never be bothered with metrics. A Wurkola Widget will always be better in all aspects than anything else, and anything but a Wurkola must be owned by stupid people who do not know much about widgets.

But for arguments sake, why did General Motors build EVs in the 1960's? There were no government incentives, and no smog control. We were running leaded gas back then. Did they spent millions to get a head start on proving EVs suck donkey balls? And what's WORST??? 3 of General Motors EVs were DELIBERATELY left on the Moon, so nobody could drive them!!!

Fast forward to today. GM was working on their modern electromotive powertrain and chassis before the Roadster was released. No tax incentives for GM. What they came up with is now arguably one of the best engineered cars in history, the Volt. The ELR, Spark EV, and soon the Bolt, would all use technology from that 2010 released EREV.

So the next step? A more serious BEV than the Spark EV, even though the Spark is already better than the competition in that price segment. The Bolt was being engineered well before the Model 3. The Model 3 press conference changed nothing about the Bolt. It's nearly finished and in final road testing. That's why you know what the dimensions of the Bolt are, and don't even have the wheelbase on the Model 3, since the wheelbase has not been firmly established yet.

Now, let's define what serious means.

GM released FIRM data on the 2016 Volt prior to sale. It was 149 horsepower, 102 MPGe, 0-60 mph in 8.4 seconds, with a 98 mph (limited) top speed. What actually appeared at the showroom? 161 horsepower, 110 MPGe (EPA), 0-60 mph in 7.8 seconds, with a 101 mph speed limiter.

No other auto manufacturer has such a consistent reputation for downplaying their cars. No GM has ever been accused of not meeting specs; the employee culture at GM is to make sleepers. "Oh, and BTW, our CTS-V has been improved." This was when John Heinricy (old dude, GM management, hobby racer, nice guy) took the 2009 CTS-V 4 door automatic around Nurburgring to a sub 8 minute lap, cementing it's place as the fastest 4-door production car in history at the time.

I was a Ford guy in 2000. I wanted the 2000 Ford Cobra. Production stopped because Ford was caught lying about the engine horsepower and they had to fix it. A friend talked me into a 2000 Chevy Camaro. What the hell. It was cheap and advertised good mileage. So what if it only had 305 horsepower? That should be fine. Yeah, the Ford as 320 HP but I could tune the Chevy up.

So I did some baselines. I took it to a chassis dyno, and did 3 pulls. All of the pulls overlaid each other at 312 rwhp. WTF???? Something must be wrong, at LEAST 15% is lost in the driveline. Took it another dyno, and another. 310-315. Waste of money. Something is wrong. 312 rwhp is about 359 SAE horsepower. That cannot be.

So I weighed it, and took it to the dragstrip (IIRC, 3660lb total raceweight). This is the NO BS way to validate HP. First pass, blew off the tires in the first gears, but ... 107.44 mph trap speeds? Stock? No wind? HUH???

For you gearheads, figure out what it takes to get 107 traps out of 3660 in a stick shift. Yeah, over 350HP.

OK, so perhaps GM does understate their specifications. What's that mean?

You have the Bolt "factory numbers". Everybody is naturally assuming it will get 200 miles at best, 200 horsepower at best, and 7.000 seconds zero to sixty at best, have the room of a Smart Car, fall apart constantly, be late on delivery, and have an interior make of used egg crates. But the published data indicates something different. At least 225 miles and 6.4 seconds.

And last? The #1 market for passenger cars is the CUV/Crossover today. Not sedans. Was anyone really expecting GM to make a sedan? Really?
 
At least 225 miles and 6.4 seconds.

And last? The #1 market for passenger cars is the CUV/Crossover today. Not sedans. Was anyone really expecting GM to make a sedan? Really?

Where are you getting those specs? I don't know about 0-60, but 225 mile range seems quite unlikely unless they are also misstating the, battery capacity and/or Cd.

Also the Bolt is not a CUV/Crossover. It around the same size as Ford Fiesta, Honda Fit, it's smaller than the old Pontiac Vibe.
 
Canada must have different laws and different Chevrolet dealer rules. In 2016, it is illegal for any US auto dealers to fk you, but I believe those laws are at least 40 years old? Then on top of that, GM dealers in the US are required to survey each and every service customer no matter how small an issue. The GM dealer's franchise is based on these reports.

Consequently, my GM service experiences have been very good, better than other brands.

The only brand that tried to seriously fk me was Nissan, and they tried really hard. Blown transmission at 11k miles, refused to warranty, refused to let me look at the transmission, refused to outline damage, and wanted $4500 to repair it. After 3 months and hiring an attorney, it was discovered that the transmission fell apart inside. They did not secure a bolt during assembly. They ended up repairing (not replacing) the transmission under warranty. Rental car, towing, and lawyer fees were about $2500 which I took in the arse. The Nissan was scrapped with 86k on it. Everything fell apart on that POS. Rear axle grinding, engine eating oil, window mech busted, AC heater busted, etc, etc. It was absolutely the worst engineered thing with tires on it I had ever bought new. Chinese bicycles are built better.

I have had many cars in my 16 years of driving. I have 2 that stick out.

Toyota - Bought a used Matrix and found out they sold me a NEW car warranty when I had the whole fuel system go bad. They tried to say my warranty was null and void and was out a car for about a month before I threatened media/lawyers to Toyota directly and they ended up refunding me my money and gave me a free "used" car warranty and ended up having to do about $7,000 in repairs.

Ford - Bought a new 2013 Fiesta for the wife and she ended up having transmission issues, even a recall was issued but no real fix for it. We went to trade it in and was told there was an accident on it even though the dealership said there was none. Had a very long chat with the general manager and they ended up cutting me a cheque to make up for the difference and I ended up ditching my other new Ford because of that whole experience.
 
Where are you getting those specs? I don't know about 0-60, but 225 mile range seems quite unlikely unless they are also misstating the, battery capacity and/or Cd.

Also the Bolt is not a CUV/Crossover. It around the same size as Ford Fiesta, Honda Fit, it's smaller than the old Pontiac Vibe.

Assuming it has the same efficiency as the Volt when running in pure EV mode it will operate at 3.8 miles per kWh combined. Volts are EPA rated at just over 4.0 miles per kWh in city rating. The weight difference is under 20 lbs. The total aero drag is unknown.

Assume 4 kWh buffer on the 60 kWh pack, so 56 kW usable x 3.8 mi/kW x 5% improvement in EV drivetrain losses due to the lack of the planetary and clutches = 223.4 miles. Using the EPA city range, 235 miles.

I have a hunch the dropping the gas engine, one electric motor, and planetary transmission will net a larger than 5% gain, and the motor and controller itself will be improved and optimized to gain more efficiency. GM just reworked both those components to very high efficiencies, IIRC, 95%?

The CUV issue keeps coming up. We will have to agree to disagree. It does not look like a sedan to me. It's bigger inside than an Audi A4 both for passengers and luggage.