Model 3 AWD option, why?

[Model ☰]

If there is snow/ice conditions on the road and you do not have snow-/winter-tires, I think the best option is to have ZWD (ZeroWheelDrive)

With the tires done, we can start talking about which or how many wheels to use to propel the car.

That argument can only applies to places where there are clearly defined seasons. In the Colorado front range we can get three season in one day, so unless you enjoy driving your winter tires on dry roads 95% of the time the only rational thing to do is put on all-seasons.

The best option is AWD with all seasons, everything else is a compromise.

 

[roguenode]

RWD is as good as AWD? Not in my experience. Try going up a 15% incline covered in ice or snow with RWD vs AWD. And for either, Nokian studded hakkas can't be beat.

 

[mmccord]

I don't understand why every thread that mentions AWD has to have a bunch of people come in and claim that FWD & snow tires is just as good. Guess what, it isn't. When the steering wheels are also the driving wheels, you can only do one of those things at a time.
Personally, i like the ability to steer my car while i drive up a snowy hill.

 

[Snow Drift]

They didn't test my driveway then. Only AWD for me, and I hope M3 has it or I won't be getting one.

+100 I'm a three time WRX owner and love clawing up steep driveways with snow tires. AWD cannot be underestimated.

 

[Bangor Bob]

I did turn around, just once, in my snowtire-shod Subaru Forester. Granted, the plows hadn't been out yet and the snowdrifts on the state highway were breaking over the hood.

I'm still bitter about missing that ski day.

That was the ONLY day I had to turn around, however...

 

[Model 3]

That argument can only applies to places where there are clearly defined seasons. In the Colorado front range we can get three season in one day, so unless you enjoy driving your winter tires on dry roads 95% of the time the only rational thing to do is put on all-seasons.

The best option is AWD with all seasons, everything else is a compromise.

The Model S is delivered with so-called "all seasons" tiers. Here "all sessions" tires is nick-named "no seasons". But this all season tires that is default on Model S have proven to be quite good summer-tires in the Norwegian climate.
What this winter-tires should do (with variable degree of success) is to let us use them on show, ice, dry or wet roads from about +10°C and down all the way. Yes, even here we have most bare roads.

Summer-tires excel at higher temperatures. Some works fine all the way down to +5°C, and some just down to ~+15°C. Under this temperatures, they got hard does a poor job.

 

[Saghost]

That argument can only applies to places where there are clearly defined seasons. In the Colorado front range we can get three season in one day, so unless you enjoy driving your winter tires on dry roads 95% of the time the only rational thing to do is put on all-seasons.

The best option is AWD with all seasons, everything else is a compromise.

There's nothing wrong with driving on dry roads with snow tires. As I understand it, the most important part is about the design of the rubber - snow tires are designed for colder weather, with a more flexible rubber that wears quickly above 60-70 F, whereas the tougher rubber of "all season" tires becomes stiff enough to rob you of traction below 40F. It's more about the temperature range than the conditions on the ground, and all seasons in cold rain are almost as bad as all seasons on snow or ice.

AWD on All Seasons is definitely a compromise, too - and you'll have no more ability to stop or turn than a two wheel drive car with all seasons when the weather gets rough. (I've ended up off the side of the road twice in a 4WD with all seasons in extreme weather in the rockies over the years. I haven't been back there recently, but now I use snow tires on my FWD Volt.)

 

[Red Sage]

Some people like drama while driving. They call it 'fun'. They smoke tires, hang out the rear end, have to engage in vicious countersteer, spend a lot of time fighting a machine as if they are trying to land a BiG FISH while out to sea... Personally, I prefer efficiency, and driving sideways is never the fastest way around a course.

When I went to the Tesla Motors 'D' Event I was most impressed by the absolute lack of drama during launches. No huge plumes of smoke. No long streaks of rubber on the tarmac. No noise. Just the slightest, almost imperceptible ~*scrp*~ followed by cars rolling away at high speed. That's when I knew that each Tesla I would buy must have dual motor all wheel drive, at least until they come up with something better.

 

[Model ☰]

Well its Spring here now. Here is the weeks forecast:
57/28
64/32
72/36
70/37
68/36
66/37
63/34
54/30
All season tires cover this temperature range.
Suppose I could swap on a daily basis, or have two cars and decide what to drive each day. (Some people have the luxury to be able to do that)
You are wrong to assume that all environments compare to yours. It can snow from October to May here, and we can wear shorts in December.

Best option HERE is all seasons with AWD. Anyone that says otherwise is mostly driving on the wrong tires.

I have gone into work without a jacket and left having to remove snow from my windshield.

Some places swapping between snow/summer tires makes sense. Here you would need to constantly swapping based on forecast.

 

[eloder]

I've never used snow tires, and I've never had an AWD car (first car was RWD with rear engine, second car is FWD but is an EV). I've been out with six inches of snow on the roads too without much issue in both cars, and have only been stuck once--in my own parking lot.

I think AWD with all seasons will be more than suitable for me in my climate. Also echo the crazy weather changes. 70 degrees today, snow last Friday.

My biggest incentive for AWD is that it's going to be a lot of small benefits all adding together. More range in summer dry roads, more traction and performance when roads are poor. No need to spend a ton of money swapping tires all the time.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Non-studded winter tires work fine on dry roads, they just wear out faster. (Also the car will to an extent get boat-like properties, due to the too soft tires. But it's not safety-related.) What you really need to avoid with winter tires is very wet roads. Standing water and the like combined with winter tires is a recipe for aquaplaning. (Only if you're going above ~45 mph, though.)

Studded winter tires excel on smooth ice in ways no other tires come close, but the studs wear out fast on dry roads, and you'll generate a lot of particulate matter, so they're not great for the local environment. Studded tires also don't like standing water.

Currently I'm using studless Nokian R2, but when I replace them, I'm very much considering studded Nokian Hakkapeliitta 8. I've only been using the combination studless winter tires and FWD for 1.5 years, before this I had AWD, and some days it's a real challenge. I really have to be critical of which routes to take if the weather is bad, and more than once I've had to reverse down a slope to try to get a running start. Really the only reasons I can make studless winter tires work for me is that I can walk to work and I rarely drive in the mountains. If I had AWD, though, non-studded winter tires might be sufficient, even in bad conditions. All season tires = summer tires, so they aren't worth considering.

 

[EcoHeliGuy]

Just trying to come up with a Model 3 budget for March 31.

don't plan on seeing anything but AWD drive going forward, Tesla has been phasing it out.

googled it, only 10% more range?

Need to watch Bjøn video of the comparison, there was huge efficiency differences between his p85 and his buddies 70D with both in range mode. And 10% more range is a huge feat, without buying more battery capacity at a much larger price margin to boot.

I don't understand why every thread that mentions AWD has to have a bunch of people come in and claim that FWD & snow tires is just as good. Guess what, it isn't. When the steering wheels are also the driving wheels, you can only do one of those things at a time.
Personally, i like the ability to steer my car while i drive up a snowy hill.

Well ask people from the Maritime Provinces in Canada, the majority of vehicles are FWD small cars with winter tires and they drive in some of the harshest storms in North America, and every storm has a freeze thaw factor. It's Fact, 2WD gets you where you HAVE to go and 4WD gets you where to want to go. And only the odd AWD system lives up to its promises.

Non-studded winter tires work fine on dry roads, they just wear out faster. (Also the car will to an extent get boat-like properties, due to the too soft tires. But it's not safety-related.) What you really need to avoid with winter tires is very wet roads. Standing water and the like combined with winter tires is a recipe for aquaplaning.

Studded winter tires excel on smooth ice in ways no other tires come close.

your suggestions I believe are backwards here and contradict the tire manufacturers.

Winter tires are recommended for wet conditions due to the deeper tread patterns, and in fact help alleviate a lot of the drag forces you experience when driving though standing water.

Also studs excel on un smooth ice as the studs provide a grit kind of grip. Stud less tires perform best on glass like ice and black ice due to more syping contact.

Also the rubber in winter tires perform better from 7°C and below regardless of conditions. All seasons and summer tire stiffen up and as a result suffer considerable loss in lateral traction.

And the largest problem is the vast misconception that winter tire are to help you get some where. They are to help you brake and stay alive. Remember people for every mile of road, there is to miles of ditch.
There is a reason why the person without the winter tire becomes at fault in many jurisdictions.

 

[Yggdrasill]

your suggestions I believe are backwards here and contradict the tire manufacturers.

Winter tires are recommended for wet conditions due to the deeper tread patterns, and in fact help alleviate a lot of the drag forces you experience when driving though standing water.

One of the biggest differences between winter tires and summer tires is that summer tires have large channels all the way around the thread that are there to clear away water. Winter tires doesn't have these, and the result is that they aquaplane more easily. You can for instance look at this test: Google Translate

In a straight line, new summer tires aquaplaned at 82.6 km/h (51 mph), while new studless winter tires aquaplaned at 67 km/h (42 mph).

Also studs excel on un smooth ice as the studs provide a grit kind of grip. Stud less tires perform best on glass like ice and black ice due to more syping contact.

Checking various test results, I see the biggest difference on smooth ice is acceleration. Both are about as good when it comes to stopping, but studded tires + acceleration makes smooth ice into unsmooth ice, so they are better at traversing smooth ice.

Also the rubber in winter tires perform better from 7°C and below regardless of conditions. All seasons and summer tire stiffen up and as a result suffer considerable loss in lateral traction.

Agree. It's much worse to use summer tires in winter than winter tires in summer.

 

[Adm]

AWD? Yes sure!

- It adds range so Tesla can communicate that as the highest range possible
- It adds gross margin to the Model 3, which it can use as it will be a lower gross margin car than the Model S and X.

 

[EcoHeliGuy]

Michelin : Snow and ice traction is improved and there is a reduced risk of hydroplaning

Tire rack : The tread design itself also plays an important role in wet weather traction. The directional tread design, also known as unidirectional tread, is one of the most efficient designs for water evacuation. Most directional tires have a V-shape tread pattern which can more easily push water from underneath the tire when compared to a typical ribbed tread design

 

[Model 3]

Best option HERE is all seasons with AWD. Anyone that says otherwise is mostly driving on the wrong tires.

Mind you that I did not say anything about the weather/climate or what to use anywhere, just talking about temperatures and if it is snow/ice on the roads. What to make of it in your temperatures/road conditions is up to you.

I have gone into work without a jacket and left having to remove snow from my windshield.

Come to think of it, I have a jacket in the car just in case it should become cold, but it has yet to become under -20°C here, so have not used it this winter

Here you would need to constantly swapping based on forecast.

Sounds a lot like here in the spring and autumn. And yes, I have heard someone seriously talking about having one more wheel set with all seasons tires for this "in between" periods in spring and autumn when it is to cold for summer tires but not yet freezing/sub-zero°C/snowing, but do not know about anyone that does this. Personally, I choose to swap tires as early in the autumn/late in the spring I can (using studded tires that is only allowed on the roads here from Nov to one week after Easter), as I can use winter tires even if suboptimal, but I really can't use summer/"all season" if it suddenly starts to snow or freeze on the roads.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Michelin : Snow and ice traction is improved and there is a reduced risk of hydroplaning

Tire rack : The tread design itself also plays an important role in wet weather traction. The directional tread design, also known as unidirectional tread, is one of the most efficient designs for water evacuation. Most directional tires have a V-shape tread pattern which can more easily push water from underneath the tire when compared to a typical ribbed tread design

There are differences when it comes to winter tires. Some are intended to be used on mostly wet roads (we call them "continental" winter tires, for use in places like Germany), while others are intended to be used on snow and ice (we call them "nordic" winter tires, for use in places like Norway). We use "nordic" winter tires almost exclusively here up north, and it is a fact that they are worse in wet conditions than "continental" winter tires.

I guess your sources are talking about "continental" winter tires, which are basically an intermediate stage between all season tires and proper winter tires intended for use on snow and ice.

 

[roguenode]

Non-studded winter tires work fine on dry roads, they just wear out faster. (Also the car will to an extent get boat-like properties, due to the too soft tires. But it's not safety-related.) What you really need to avoid with winter tires is very wet roads. Standing water and the like combined with winter tires is a recipe for aquaplaning. (Only if you're going above ~45 mph, though.)

Studded winter tires excel on smooth ice in ways no other tires come close, but the studs wear out fast on dry roads, and you'll generate a lot of particulate matter, so they're not great for the local environment. Studded tires also don't like standing water.

Currently I'm using studless Nokian R2, but when I replace them, I'm very much considering studded Nokian Hakkapeliitta 8. I've only been using the combination studless winter tires and FWD for 1.5 years, before this I had AWD, and some days it's a real challenge. I really have to be critical of which routes to take if the weather is bad, and more than once I've had to reverse down a slope to try to get a running start. Really the only reasons I can make studless winter tires work for me is that I can walk to work and I rarely drive in the mountains. If I had AWD, though, non-studded winter tires might be sufficient, even in bad conditions. All season tires = summer tires, so they aren't worth considering.

I use the studded hakka 8's on my fwd car. Winter tires are a must where I drive and with FWD the studs do help with the hills. It's hard to be Nokian for winter tires and the R2 is a great one. I suspect it has lower rolling resistance than the hakka's, so it could help the range loss that comes with winter tires in an ev.

If available, AWD as it is a given for me. Winter drives where I live can involve quite a bit of snow and ice and drives with large amounts of elevation gain. Couple that with running the heater and cold temps and it's a worst case scenario for range. I'm more interested seeing more good winter tires designed for low rolling resistance. Nokian's been working on that with the R2.

 

[EcoHeliGuy]

There are differences when it comes to winter tires. Some are intended to be used on mostly wet roads (we call them "continental" winter tires, for use in places like Germany), while others are intended to be used on snow and ice (we call them "nordic" winter tires, for use in places like Norway). We use "nordic" winter tires almost exclusively here up north, and it is a fact that they are worse in wet conditions than "continental" winter tires.

I guess your sources are talking about "continental" winter tires, which are basically an intermediate stage between all season tires and proper winter tires intended for use on snow and ice.

This could be, although here. There is no differentiating here between a Nokian hakkapeliitta and a Michelin ice-X.

Other then reviews that include then Nokian tend to place it at the top.

I live in a rain forest with coastal mountains. I can drive from green golf courses to 2 meters deep of snow in as short as 30 mins depending on location. And our Highway speeds are 120km/h. On the interior we have mountain bases with snow sheds and tunnels. When it's down pouring and we have standing water. And I spend a fair bit of time on ice roads in the high Arctic. Nothing beats Nokian Halapeliitta, Michelin ice-X or General Atlimax.

 

[dgpcolorado]

They didn't test my driveway then. Only AWD for me, and I hope M3 has it or I won't be getting one.

My situation exactly. I have chains for my RWD Model S to get up my long, steep, curved driveway when it is slick. If I go to a Model 3 I will definitely go with AWD for the convenience of being able to climb steep hills on snow; it helps to have all four wheels providing a bit of traction on hills and curves.

That argument can only applies to places where there are clearly defined seasons. In the Colorado front range we can get three season in one day, so unless you enjoy driving your winter tires on dry roads 95% of the time the only rational thing to do is put on all-seasons.

The best option is AWD with all seasons, everything else is a compromise.

I am in the same situation here on the other side of the mountains. Most of my driving is on clear, dry pavement even in winter. AWD would help with the rest.

I can see why Sunbelt drivers might not need or care about AWD and I certainly can understand people with serious winters, who drive snow and ice a lot, using snow tires (I used to when I would head into the mountains for skiing right after each storm). But for typical sunny Colorado driving, AWD plus all season tires is the best compromise. YMMV.