Model 3 entry via ... keycard & app. No fob.

[Runt8]

I've not read all the 20+ pages - but weren't there comments earlier on about not wanting the car to be unlocked based on BT just because you are somewhat near by ?

I'd say it's safe to assume that the phone based unlocking will work pretty much identically to how the fob works with current Tesla vehicles: You walk up to the car, pull on the handle, and the door unlocks. This is what I will believe unless evidence is presented otherwise.

There are also options on the screen that seem to suggest various options for unlocking the doors as you walk up, and locking them as you leave. No one here knows how exactly that will work. My watch is setup to unlock my laptop automatically, and it works very well (if I remember correctly it uses a combination of Bluetooth and wifi and measures round trip time to decide if you're close enough). It has to be closer than about 2-3 feet, so it's technically possible to implement something like this.

 

[tpatana]

I've not read all the 20+ pages - but weren't there comments earlier on about not wanting the car to be unlocked based on BT just because you are somewhat near by ?

That's option to turn on/off, based on if you prefer it or not.

If you don't like it, don't use it. Like people complaining that poking in the eye hurts. Duh, just don't do it then.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

My watch is setup to unlock my laptop automatically, and it works very well

I honestly just want that......with the phone as backup, and keycard as backup to that.

Give me an option to use my watch and an unlock radius of 3-5 feet.

 

[gregincal]

If I leave my fob in the S, it locks after a timeout (handles retract, mirrors fold). To unlock, I touch the handle and it'll just open since the fob is within proximity.

Handles retract and mirrors fold doesn't mean it's locked, the car will do that even if you have walk away lock turned off. I'm pretty sure if you checked the app it would show that it's unlocked. Like other cars the Model S flashes it's turn indicators to show that it's locking.

 

[S3XY]

I hope you have your flame retardant keyboard on standby......get ready to feel the hate in 3....2......

My "like" to "disagree" ratio has been getting too lopsided recently.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

My "like" to "disagree" ratio has been getting too lopsided recently.

*shrug* at the end of the day, my watch, phone or keycard will get me into my Model 3 upon delivery, no matter how many "disagrees" I have.

 

[mojo.k]

Hi everyone, first post here.

Is anyone else worried about this feature with regards to it being reliably fast? Bluetooth doesn’t have a fast discovery protocol when one of the devices connecting to each other is in aggressive battery saving mode (mobile phones). In general, how BT devices discover and connect to each other is basically the car broadcasts a BT (or BTLE) signal that the phone passively listens to. The BT chip on the phone isn't listening constantly otherwise it would drain phone battery, so it listens intermittently. This results in a delay of establishing a connection. A few seconds on average, up to as much as 10 seconds even. This is fine when your phone connects to car’s infotainment as by the time you turn on the car, and buckle up, a few seconds to 10 seconds goes by unnoticed. But to unlock a car? I am skeptical it will be reliably fast.

 

[N5329K]

No flame, no Bolt either.
Robin

 

[gregd]

Also, another question. If i'm relying solely on my phone to unlock and start the car... what happens if i'm driving and for some reason my phone dies. In the past 5 years, i've been unlucky enough to have two different phone spontaneously stop working (one just went blank, the other entered a boot-loop).. What will the car do when it looses it's phone connection while in transit?

My expectation for this scenario is that the car would continue to run, but once you stopped (put it in park?) you wouldn't be able to start again without the keycard. That's what the current cars (of multiple manufacturers) do. Confirming, in one of the live videos from Friday's event, the driver was asked if they had to keep the keycard in the cupholder, and the answer was no. So, the car will drive without constant contact with a key of some sort (phone or card), but you will need some sort of key to get it out of park.

This, by the way, is a security risk. All a thief needs to do is get the car out of park, and they can drive wherever they want within the car's range. Relaying the Bluetooth beacon (or the signal from the current key fob) to the car with a simple radio link can accomplish that, unless the unlock process requires a bi-directional signal. That just makes the theft more difficult, but still not impossible.

 

[gregd]

Hi everyone, first post here.

Is anyone else worried about this feature with regards to it being reliably fast? Bluetooth doesn’t have a fast discovery protocol when one of the devices connecting to each other is in aggressive battery saving mode (mobile phones). In general, how BT devices discover and connect to each other is basically the car broadcasts a BT (or BTLE) signal that the phone passively listens to. The BT chip on the phone isn't listening constantly otherwise it would drain phone battery, so it listens intermittently. This results in a delay of establishing a connection. A few seconds on average, up to as much as 10 seconds even. This is fine when your phone connects to car’s infotainment as by the time you turn on the car, and buckle up, a few seconds to 10 seconds goes by unnoticed. But to unlock a car? I am skeptical it will be reliably fast.

Yes, and besides the delays inherent in BT/BTLE, my phone often goes off into the weeds tending to who knows what, making the UI at least appear to freeze for a time. Communication with a lock during that time, I expect, would be problematic. Then it comes to, working as if nothing was wrong. I chalk it up to the small squirrel inside being asked to do too much.

 

[gregd]

That's option to turn on/off, based on if you prefer it or not.

If you don't like it, don't use it. Like people complaining that poking in the eye hurts. Duh, just don't do it then.

I think that underlying all this topic's passion is that Tesla's choice of the new technology (smart phone based lock) as the primary mechanism is either wrong as it has been communicated, or there are other aspects of its implementation that make it worthy (and safe) which they have neglected to inform us about. It appears to me that they have adopted glitz and apparent ease of use over security and reliability (reliability from a 'never lock or unlock in an unintended fashion' perspective).

Leaving a phone / key in the car is an extremely common occurrence. My wife would always want to hide her purse (with phone and keys) in the trunk when we went somewhere, so she wouldn't have to lug the thing around. I would have my phone & keys in my pocket, patted to be sure before the trunk was closed. If her phone were to wake up and be detected by the car as an unlock signal, after I had used (say) my key card to lock it, that would be considered a total security fail, as in not acceptable, full stop. That is why I made the statement a few pages ago that the key card should be considered the primary key, with the phone as a backup, unless they have some other means to properly, 100% of the time, behave in the right way under all circumstances. And, having to set options on a per-trip-segment basis is not acceptable. This needs to be a set-and-forget situation. She was never one for technology or messing with settings, and I expect a lot of customers will be in that same situation.

 

[electracity]

Hi everyone, first post here.

Is anyone else worried about this feature with regards to it being reliably fast? Bluetooth doesn’t have a fast discovery protocol when one of the devices connecting to each other is in aggressive battery saving mode (mobile phones). In general, how BT devices discover and connect to each other is basically the car broadcasts a BT (or BTLE) signal that the phone passively listens to. The BT chip on the phone isn't listening constantly otherwise it would drain phone battery, so it listens intermittently. This results in a delay of establishing a connection. A few seconds on average, up to as much as 10 seconds even. This is fine when your phone connects to car’s infotainment as by the time you turn on the car, and buckle up, a few seconds to 10 seconds goes by unnoticed. But to unlock a car? I am skeptical it will be reliably fast.

On apple the phone does a good job of keeping frequently used bluetooth responsive. I'm not concerned about wakeup, but proximity. Bluetooth now is good for real 50 feet plus in the real world. Won't that keep the car unlocked at home for some people?

I think there are some software pieces that go with the new UI that have not been revealed. Like easily unlocking the trunk.

I think the S/X get new UI/screen/processor that will be in regular customer hands before the model 3. This is why Musk wasn't showing off new stuff.

 

[gregincal]

I think that underlying all this topic's passion is that Tesla's choice of the new technology (smart phone based lock) as the primary mechanism is either wrong as it has been communicated, or there are other aspects of its implementation that make it worthy (and safe) which they have neglected to inform us about. It appears to me that they have adopted glitz and apparent ease of use over security and reliability (reliability from a 'never lock or unlock in an unintended fashion' perspective).

Leaving a phone / key in the car is an extremely common occurrence. My wife would always want to hide her purse (with phone and keys) in the trunk when we went somewhere, so she wouldn't have to lug the thing around. I would have my phone & keys in my pocket, patted to be sure before the trunk was closed. If her phone were to wake up and be detected by the car as an unlock signal, after I had used (say) my key card to lock it, that would be considered a total security fail, as in not acceptable, full stop. That is why I made the statement a few pages ago that the key card should be considered the primary key, with the phone as a backup, unless they have some other means to properly, 100% of the time, behave in the right way under all circumstances. And, having to set options on a per-trip-segment basis is not acceptable. This needs to be a set-and-forget situation. She was never one for technology or messing with settings, and I expect a lot of customers will be in that same situation.

OK, I guess my Model S and my wife's Honda CRV and my parent's Camry all would all fail your security criteria, as well as basically every other keyless entry car. Both my wife and my mom have had problems leaving their key fobs in cars and the cars not locking. My Mom has bought one of those signal blocking bags to put her key fob in so it won't do this, and the same thing would work for a phone.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

On apple the phone does a good job of keeping frequently used bluetooth responsive. I'm not concerned about wakeup, but proximity. Bluetooth now is good for real 50 feet plus in the real world. Won't that keep the car unlocked at home for some people?

I think there are some software pieces that go with the new UI that have not been revealed. Like easily unlocking the trunk.

I think the S/X get new UI/screen/processor that will be in regular customer hands before the model 3. This is why Musk wasn't showing off new stuff.

I've had an Android smartwatch for 2+ years, on multiple phones now, and the bidirectional data transfers haven't been an issue, even when I walk in and out of bluetooth range of the phone.

 

[TrickyDimitri]

Personally, even though it may have some downsides, I'm all for BT on phone being primary "key", with credit card sized card as backup. One less annoying thing I have to carry around with me. My keyfob, wallet, and phone always go with me together everywhere. Getting rid of one is an improvement. Even better, no more "butt dialing" the windows down, or the doors unlocked, etc. I "butt dial" my keyfob far too often, but that won't be a problem with a phone key.

I see only two downsides. Not being able to quickly lock the doors manually when walking away (have to learn to trust the autolock), and possibly occasional slow BT connect, delaying entry. I can live with that.

I'm seriously considering a 3 for my next car, to replace my 2014 S P85. I love the S, but I could use the autopilot, longer range, and higher efficiency for my regular highway travel.

And while this is true of all Teslas, I am THRILLED that Tesla keyfobs do not have panic buttons. Oh how I hate panic buttons. I can't tell you how many times I have hit a panic button accidentally, sometimes in the middle of the night when neighbors are sleeping. Never once in my life have I used a panic button on purpose. Panic buttons should die. Die die die. Thank you Tesla for not having one.

Can the auto lock time be adjusting on current Tesla models?

 

[N5329K]

I think that underlying all this topic's passion is that Tesla's choice of the new technology (smart phone based lock) as the primary mechanism is either wrong as it has been communicated, or there are other aspects of its implementation that make it worthy (and safe) which they have neglected to inform us about. It appears to me that they have adopted glitz and apparent ease of use over security and reliability (reliability from a 'never lock or unlock in an unintended fashion' perspective).

Leaving a phone / key in the car is an extremely common occurrence. My wife would always want to hide her purse (with phone and keys) in the trunk when we went somewhere, so she wouldn't have to lug the thing around. I would have my phone & keys in my pocket, patted to be sure before the trunk was closed. If her phone were to wake up and be detected by the car as an unlock signal, after I had used (say) my key card to lock it, that would be considered a total security fail, as in not acceptable, full stop. That is why I made the statement a few pages ago that the key card should be considered the primary key, with the phone as a backup, unless they have some other means to properly, 100% of the time, behave in the right way under all circumstances. And, having to set options on a per-trip-segment basis is not acceptable. This needs to be a set-and-forget situation. She was never one for technology or messing with settings, and I expect a lot of customers will be in that same situation.

Choosing coolness over function and reliability. Hmmm. Are those falcon wings I hear flapping?
Robin

 

[mojo.k]

On apple the phone does a good job of keeping frequently used bluetooth responsive. I'm not concerned about wakeup, but proximity. Bluetooth now is good for real 50 feet plus in the real world. Won't that keep the car unlocked at home for some people?

I think there are some software pieces that go with the new UI that have not been revealed. Like easily unlocking the trunk.

I think the S/X get new UI/screen/processor that will be in regular customer hands before the model 3. This is why Musk wasn't showing off new stuff.

Once connected, BT devices know what the RSSI (Signal strength) is to the other device, so they will disable/enable functions accordingly.

The issue is initial connection speed. Phones now optimizes for power very aggressively and generally don't optimize for initial connection delay in bluetooth when screen is off, when screen is ON, it scans at a much faster rate. I've worked with bluetooth for 2 years and that is my experience. Not saying BT is bad, just that inherit nature of how it works doesn't give it the ability to work as seamlessly and reliably as a key fob in this scenario.

 

[gregd]

Choosing coolness over function and reliability. Hmmm. Are those falcon wings I hear flapping?
Robin

Actually I was referring to convenience over security, the age-old problem with advancing technology.

That said, I'd love to see falcon doors on the new Roadster (but that's a different thread...).

 

[electracity]

Once connected, BT devices know what the RSSI (Signal strength) is to the other device, so they will disable/enable functions accordingly.

The issue is initial connection speed. Phones now optimizes for power very aggressively and generally don't optimize for initial connection delay in bluetooth when screen is off, when screen is ON, it scans at a much faster rate. I've worked with bluetooth for 2 years and that is my experience. Not saying BT is bad, just that inherit nature of how it works doesn't give it the ability to work as seamlessly and reliably as a key fob in this scenario.

Interesting. How about using location services and the Tesla app to determine proximity? Can an app that is allowed run in the background wake up bluetooth?

The phone knows the driver's location. The car knows its location and tells the app.

They wanted to eliminate the FOB and the FOB battery. The wanted an inexpensive system to ID a potential driver (could be many people with many types of access). But they want the system to do easy automatic ID plus provide several types on unlock functionality. I think we are missing some information.

Maybe the car uses the cameras to recognize the driver. Blackvue functionality that doubles as biometric ID. "Tesla Cloud Blackvue" as a service/revenue stream.

 

[mongo]

Hi everyone, first post here.

Is anyone else worried about this feature with regards to it being reliably fast? Bluetooth doesn’t have a fast discovery protocol when one of the devices connecting to each other is in aggressive battery saving mode (mobile phones). In general, how BT devices discover and connect to each other is basically the car broadcasts a BT (or BTLE) signal that the phone passively listens to. The BT chip on the phone isn't listening constantly otherwise it would drain phone battery, so it listens intermittently. This results in a delay of establishing a connection. A few seconds on average, up to as much as 10 seconds even. This is fine when your phone connects to car’s infotainment as by the time you turn on the car, and buckle up, a few seconds to 10 seconds goes by unnoticed. But to unlock a car? I am skeptical it will be reliably fast.

It may be using BLE beacon mode. It's a low power setup that doesn't require pairing. Car would listen for the beacon and act appropriately based on signal strength.