Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[AlanSubie4Life]

If you really want better 0-60, you need more watts from 15 MPH to 45 MPH. And that's the battery that is limiting that, even today. The motors are not the limit.

Still was hoping to hear your comments on my prior post. I would like to understand the tradeoffs here - and I might be missing something in the prior plots posted. (They make it look like there is a lot on the table below 45mph if you can use the large amount of unused battery power at those speeds to produce power at the wheels (with the “downside” (not an actual downside!) that acceleration, proportional to the slope of the power vs velocity plot, would start to decrease from a higher peak at a lower speed).)

Their innovative laminate and magnet structure along with carbon winding allows them to reduce the air gap between the rotor and stator. This increases torque at the same voltage. This is not free- this requires more current at the same voltage

Is this motor capable of higher currents at the same voltage (so more power) at low speed? If so, from plots above, it should help with faster 0-60, shouldn’t it? There is not a battery limit until 40-45mph. Maybe I am missing something (see prior post!).

They absolutely cannot afford to mess with the efficiency millions of Model 3's just so a few of us that care can go slightly quicker.

Do you happen to know whether the carbon-sleeved rotors are more efficient?
Also, maybe the gain is marginal, but would going to a permanent-magnet motor in front help efficiency at all?

For cost efficiency of course it makes no sense to make changes but actual efficiency doesn’t seem incompatible with higher performance in this case, does it? (Though the gains are probably pretty marginal.)

The answer is nothing. Because the whole point is to get great 0-60 times out of a high volume commuter car.

But are you saying they will do nothing? I think you are not saying that. But not sure!

Seems like doing nothing would result in no significant change in performance which they probably can’t afford to do. (I guess I could see them making minor tweaks to the Model 3 motor to get a bit more torque, and maybe there are other material advances which allow tighter tolerances on the rotor without carbon sleeves, would be a halfway and cheaper solution.)

 

[GreenHokie]

Speculation seems to be growing that Tesla will offer a Plaid-like trim in the Model 3.
Not that it means anything, but some of the more popular YouTubers/shills are starting to comment on & believe a significant performance upgrade/variant will be coming to the refresh Model 3. They even go so far as to show photos of a new drive unit, which they claim will be used in the upcoming Model 3 Performance/Plaid trim. They (the YouTubers) are also saying there is evidence the performance variant of the Model 3 will also have a slightly different exterior trim (like a different looking rear diffuser, etc…) and that this upcoming Model 3 Performance/Plaid trim will be the first vehicle, where Tesla will have a performance/plaid trim that will actually look a little different than the standard and long range variants in that same model line.

We shall see!!! Let the fun & misinformation/misdirection begin!!!!

 

[Olle]

The answer is nothing. Because the whole point is to get great 0-60 times out of a high volume commuter car. Not to build a low volume sports car.

We shall see. From looking around it seems to have a reasonable share of the M3 sales. Not a low volume sports car.

All of your options reduce efficiency. If you re-arrange cells for higher series voltage, you increase the internal resistance of the battery and increase IR losses.

With your logic, all EVs would have a 3 to 4 V system voltage.

You can't just "wind motors for lower voltage" without tradeoffs. If this worked, Tesla would have done this 8 years ago when designing the Model 3 motors.

Over these 8 years, PMSynRM geometry has evolved and inverter algoritms and components have evolved. Model S/X has this large voltage differential from battery to motor and doesn't seem to be suffering in efficiency or otherwise. What tradeoffs are you referring to?

We're all discussing this as if Tesla has to make a faster Model 3, as if their goal is to compete with sports cars, or even BMW M3's. It's not. The performance is a side effect of being electric, not the goal. They absolutely cannot afford to mess with the efficiency millions of Model 3's just so a few of us that care can go slightly quicker.

True that they're not going to be messing much with the base model to enable P. Later base M3/Y have a different rear DU compared to P, so they are already willing to separate out P, while not messing with efficiency or cost of base.
If P and base already have different trim e.g rear spoiler, suspension and brakes, it doesn't cost much logistically to install different components as long as said components are in mass production. Carbon sleeved motors are already up and running for Semi, Plaid S/X and seems like a slam dunk, provided that they have a battery pack to match.
Speaking of which, don't count out the structural 4680 for P, which is still evolving. There will be variants of 4680 cells different power and energy densities. Imagine a separate 3/Y pack with high power cells for P, everything else equal.

 

[SigNC]

It's very interesting that the Plaid runs lower RPM's than a model 3P at the same vehicle speeds.

Is it? If you want to hit 200mph you need to be geared higher even if you can spin the motor faster.

 

[gearchruncher]

Go read the Model S manual yourself. The gear reduction on a plaid is lower than a base model s or 3.

It runs lower RPM at 200MPH than the other cars do at 160MPH.

7.56 vs 9.04.

 

[FreqFlyer]

Speculation seems to be growing that Tesla will offer a Plaid-like trim in the Model 3.
Not that it means anything, but some of the more popular YouTubers/shills are starting to comment on & believe a significant performance upgrade/variant will be coming to the refresh Model 3. They even go so far as to show photos of a new drive unit, which they claim will be used in the upcoming Model 3 Performance/Plaid trim. They (the YouTubers) are also saying there is evidence the performance variant of the Model 3 will also have a slightly different exterior trim (like a different looking rear diffuser, etc…) and that this upcoming Model 3 Performance/Plaid trim will be the first vehicle, where Tesla will have a performance/plaid trim that will actually look a little different than the standard and long range variants in that same model line.

We shall see!!! Let the fun & misinformation/misdirection begin!!!!

You mean this guy, I am not sure where he is getting his info. I bet its from the same Chinese sources you can read on twitter.

 

[GreenHokie]

You mean this guy, I am not sure where he is getting his info. I bet its from the same Chinese sources you can read on twitter.

Yeah, that guy is one of the lesser known YouTubers I saw, who made some of these bold predictions. Ryan Shaw also recently made some comments about a possible performance/plaid Model 3 highland, and Mat Watson (from CarWow) also dangled a carrot about something ”very very special” that may be coming from Tesla … presumably about the Model 3 highland. Obviously, no one outside Tesla really knows. Personally, I don’t believe anything these YouTubers are saying, but it’s fun to speculate/dream!!!

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yeah, that guy is one of the lesser known YouTubers I saw, who made some of these bold predictions. Ryan Shaw also recently made some comments about a possible performance/plaid Model 3 highland, and Mat Watson (from CarWow) also dangled a carrot about something ”very very special” that may be coming from Tesla … presumably about the Model 3 highland. Obviously, no one outside Tesla really knows. Personally, I don’t believe anything these YouTubers are saying, but it’s fun to speculate/dream!!!

That youtuber just summarizes other online sources and many times does a very poor job of doing so. An example I saw previously was about HW4. I would take any youtuber claims with a huge grain of salt especially if they don't link all their sources so that you can check if anything got lost in translation.
Discussion: HW.4 Suite - Availability, retrofit, suitability etc.

 

[SpriteM3]

I think the Highland performance will be the same or similar to the current performance. From what I understand the Highland LR will do 0-62 in about 4.4 and the top speed is limited to 125MPH. The Highland P will probably keep the same specs as the current performance model. In a way, they nerfed the new LR so the P will actually have a larger gap and actually a worth wild upgrade to the performance.

But that's just what I think.

 

[scrapps]

Yeah, that guy is one of the lesser known YouTubers I saw, who made some of these bold predictions. Ryan Shaw also recently made some comments about a possible performance/plaid Model 3 highland, and Mat Watson (from CarWow) also dangled a carrot about something ”very very special” that may be coming from Tesla … presumably about the Model 3 highland. Obviously, no one outside Tesla really knows. Personally, I don’t believe anything these YouTubers are saying, but it’s fun to speculate/dream!!!

My assumption was that carrot was concerning Cybertruck.

 

[GreenHokie]

That youtuber just summarizes other online sources and many times does a very poor job of doing so. An example I saw previously was about HW4. I would take any youtuber claims with a huge grain of salt especially if they don't link all their sources so that you can check if anything got lost in translation.
Discussion: HW.4 Suite - Availability, retrofit, suitability etc.

I agree. Any content from that particular YouTuber (or from most other YouTubers) should be considered pure speculation.
Of course, since this thread is a speculation thread, I think it’s OK to mention/repeat what was said as long as it is appropriately described (as non-factual).

I think the Highland performance will be the same or similar to the current performance. From what I understand the Highland LR will do 0-62 in about 4.4 and the top speed is limited to 125MPH. The Highland P will probably keep the same specs as the current performance model. In a way, they nerfed the new LR so the P will actually have a larger gap and actually a worth wild upgrade to the performance.

But that's just what I think.

You may very well be correct. However, I still think Tesla recognizes their current Model 3 Performance has already started to fall a little behind other EV‘s in the same class/size range. So, I think/hope Tesla will react appropriately with a refresh Model 3 Performance/Plaid that will have a moderate-to-significant performance bump compared to the outgoing Model 3 Performance.

My assumption was that carrot was concerning Cybertruck.

Yeah, Mat could very well be referring to the upcoming Cybertruck. I really did not even consider that as a possibility, because to me Cybertruck is definitely not in the “very very special” category. Of course, others may feel differently and think Cybertruck is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Personally, I think Cybertruck (if kept in its current form/design/shape) will be a relative failure for Tesla with very low sales volumes. However, if the movie Barbie can be a big hit at the box office, then I suppose Cybertruck can defy the odds and also be a huge hit at sales centers….

 

[kpanda17]

I agree. Any content from that particular YouTuber (or from most other YouTubers) should be considered pure speculation.
Of course, since this thread is a speculation thread, I think it’s OK to mention/repeat what was said as long as it is appropriately described (as non-factual).



You may very well be correct. However, I still think Tesla recognizes their current Model 3 Performance has already started to fall a little behind other EV‘s in the same class/size range. So, I think/hope Tesla will react appropriately with a refresh Model 3 Performance/Plaid that will have a moderate-to-significant performance bump compared to the outgoing Model 3 Performance.



Yeah, Mat could very well be referring to the upcoming Cybertruck. I really did not even consider that as a possibility, because to me Cybertruck is definitely not in the “very very special” category. Of course, others may feel differently and think Cybertruck is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Personally, I think Cybertruck (if kept in its current form/design/shape) will be a relative failure for Tesla with very low sales volumes. However, if the movie Barbie can be a big hit at the box office, then I suppose Cybertruck can defy the odds and also be a huge hit at sales centers….

CT will crush it and not vs F150 buyers
But taking from others Teslas, like my plan,
Taco, Wrangler, Bronco, Ridgeline, R1T
Etc
Non traditional PU buyers and those curious

 

[Daniel L]

Give it slightly different looks, bigger brakes, better than BMW M3/M4 performance (down low and up top), and I'll sign up the day it's released

 

[SpriteM3]

You may very well be correct. However, I still think Tesla recognizes their current Model 3 Performance has already started to fall a little behind other EV‘s in the same class/size range. So, I think/hope Tesla will react appropriately with a refresh Model 3 Performance/Plaid that will have a moderate-to-significant performance bump compared to the outgoing Model 3 Performance.

Honestly, give me the specs of a MSLR and I'd be happy, it would bring down the 1/4 mile from 11.4 to mid 10's and performance at higher speeds would improve greatly.

 

[gearchruncher]

Honestly, give me the specs of a MSLR and I'd be happy, it would bring down the 1/4 mile from 11.4 to mid 10's and performance at higher speeds would improve greatly.

And I'd never buy one that reduced the 0-60 time because I care about performance when there are corners involved, and on the street where 60-70 MPH is the legal speed limit. Hence Tesla's dilemma. Except it's not a dilemma since they can sell the current version with basically just some software tweaks off the high volume AWD, while a different performance variant would require different physical part numbers that make no sense for Tesla to make when they already have their Halo car.

Kind of like how it took Porsche 20+ years to allow the Boxter to get anywhere near a 911 in Performance (and then they still made sure the Boxter that did that was priced more like a 911 than a boxter)

 

[Collutio]

And I'd never buy one that reduced the 0-60 time because I care about performance when there are corners involved, and on the street where 60-70 MPH is the legal speed limit. Hence Tesla's dilemma. Except it's not a dilemma since they can sell the current version with basically just some software tweaks off the high volume AWD, while a different performance variant would require different physical part numbers that make no sense for Tesla to make when they already have their Halo car.

Kind of like how it took Porsche 20+ years to allow the Boxter to get anywhere near a 911 in Performance (and then they still made sure the Boxter that did that was priced more like a 911 than a boxter)

I take mine to the track, so I'm much more interested in improving performance above 60MPH. If the 0-60 time was unchanged but the 60-120 range was improved markedly I'd be quite interested. Similarly, if the battery pack was changed to retain more performance at low SoC I'd be interested too. But we all want different things improved in the existing M3P so it's really piqued my interest to see what changes are made.

 

[Tiger]

I’m thinking a ‘ludicrous mode’ option…not plaid. They still want to differentiate between S and 3. Ie. 2.7-2.8 sec 0-60 spec. Maybe 2.5 real world.

This would be the absolute best Tesla on the road imo. Handling and power wrapped into a neat package.

This would sway me to upgrade my 22’ LR boost.!

Have to say that if they make Model 3 faster than Model X Plaid it totally wrecks any rationale of buying Model X Plaid 6 seat version. Then I'd just buy a Model 3 Plaid and put a ski box on top for long item transport

 

[Tiger]

So much guessing in here.

The modern Model S (including Plaid) uses a 110s battery configuration. This gives a nominal voltage of 401.5V
The Model 3 uses a 96s configuration for 350.4V.

Yeah, the Model S will have more top end. 15% more voltage means a lot even if you change nothing else. There's some non-linearities in here too which mean each volt is worth more than the previous one. Which is why Porsche and others are going to 800V.

I thought the inverter can switch it up/normalize to any voltage, so much so that the battery does not predict output?

 

[gearchruncher]

I take mine to the track, so I'm much more interested in improving performance above 60MPH.

I'm a fellow racer, just at autocross, which doesn't need the top end speed. I'm jealous that you can track your Model 3. In the USA, charging near tracks is very rare except in CA. So for me, putting a supercharger near the track would increase the track performance of thousands of Model 3's a lot more than making a new car quicker would. No matter how fast the EV is, it's not all that interesting if you can only get 20 minutes of track time a day due to charging locations.

 

[gearchruncher]

I thought the inverter can switch it up/normalize to any voltage, so much so that the battery does not predict output?

If this were true, no EV would drop in power at higher speeds.

This also violates physics, since if you boost the voltage at the output but maintain the current, the power goes up. Power must be conserved. Since the voltage at the battery didn't go up, the current must. So the battery will still have a current limit which will come into play.