Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[mpgxsvcd]

It's a little wider than a single dot but your point is very valid. One thing I don't understand is how @eivissa power curve starts at just 50 kW.

View attachment 1036905

Assuming that from standstill the motors are producing 100% torque. How much current does this need? Assuming 335 volts is supplied equals 150 Amps drawn. The motors are rated 630A/830A for 3D3/3D6 so this is much less than their 100% rating. Does it really only need 50kW of power to accelerate 1,900kg at 1.0G?

Power is torque times rpm divided by a constant. At very low rpms like in your example the power is very low even for large torque values.

If you maintain constant torque Power will increase linearly with an increase in rpms. That is what you see in the current model 3 up to the point where torque starts to drop off.

The battery could produce extremely large torque values at low rpms. It could basically burn the tires off if they didn’t have traction control always on. At low rpms the battery isn’t being pushed hardly at all because the power requirements are so low.

 

[milesr3]

Power is torque times rpm divided by a constant.

I was thinking more about the other power, equal to volts x Amps and I'm amazed that it only takes 50kW/68PS to launch an M3P from standstill.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

I was thinking more about the other power, equal to volts x Amps and I'm amazed that it only takes 50kW/68PS to launch an M3P from standstill.

There is no “other power”. Power is power.

Power at the wheels equals Torque times RPM divided by a constant which equals Voltage times Current minus any losses.

 

[milesr3]

There is no “other power”. Power is power.

Yes, sorry I was being facetious. Lots of performance on the table then (as @Mash says) and the 265/275 section rears start to make sense.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

This is the LG 5L 3D6 M3P 2022 -> First kick is...

• 120A
• 50kW

View attachment 1036909

Is it possible that Tesla has changed the combined power limit with the Panasonic battery over the years?

I went back over my data from the summer of 2022 and I had about half a dozen runs where the combined motor power exceeded 440 KW in realtime readings. Those were all with max discharge values of 459 KW or greater.

During that time I got some significantly quicker 1/4 mile runs but not significantly higher trap speeds. I was running 11.32-11.34 @ 119+ mph consistently and then it started running 11.27-11.29 @ 119+ mph. I know that doesn’t sound like much of a difference but this thing is so incredibly consistent if that max discharge value is consistent.

While the times increased I was seeing the 440+ KW(448 KW max) of realtime power. Is it possible that they were trying out higher limits of power but then changed it back? It always stops at 436 KW now but for a brief time in the summer of 22 it was reading higher and the peak power seemed to increase slightly.

Is it possible that the Ludicrous Model 3 with a Panasonic battery will go higher than 436 KW, perhaps even go close to the 462 KW of the max discharge value?

Is it possible that they had a larger buffer in there than they actually needed and they are going to finally cut that buffer down or eliminate it all together?

 

[12B4A]

I’m actually amazed none of them have leaked anything after all this time. Not even 0-100km/h or 1/4 mile time.

It'd be nice if they at least leaked when the embargo will be over.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

The Kia EV6 GT is said to have 576 HP which is 430 KW. Bjorn tested it and it showed 423 KW(567 HP) in a real time power readings.

However, the current Model 3 Performance consistently shows 436 KW or 585 HP in real time power readings.

It appears that Kia is giving a real time battery reading when they rate the power of their EV6 GT. However, Tesla never rates the Model 3 Performance over 500 HP in any of their filings. That number is closer to wheel horsepower with a cold battery.

It is entirely possible that Tesla comes out with a horsepower rating for the Model 3 Ludicrous that is far below the EV6 GT or the Hyundai Ioniq 5N but it isn’t measured the same way.

If Tesla rates the Model 3 Ludicrous with 50+ HP more than the previous version then it is likely that it actually has close to the same power as the Ioniq 5N and more power than an EV6 GT.

Remember, battery power is not like power at the crank in an ICE vehicle. Crank Power is after all of the engine losses which are extreme in an ICE vehicle.

EV motors have much less losses than an internal combustion engine but the EV motor losses are still significant.

Think of it this way. If we measured the HP in the gas of an ICE vehicle then we would lose about 60%-70% of that energy before it got to the wheels.

With and EV there could be 10%-15% of the energy lost on its way from the battery through the motors, through the transmission, and on to the wheels.

If Tesla gives what seems like a low HP rating to the Model 3 Ludicrous it may not be low in actuality. 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile times are a much better way to measure power in an EV.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Is it possible that Tesla has changed the combined power limit with the Panasonic battery over the years?

I went back over my data from the summer of 2022 and I had about half a dozen runs where the combined motor power exceeded 440 KW in realtime readings. Those were all with max discharge values of 459 KW or greater.

During that time I got some significantly quicker 1/4 mile runs but not significantly higher trap speeds. I was running 11.32-11.34 @ 119+ mph consistently and then it started running 11.27-11.29 @ 119+ mph. I know that doesn’t sound like much of a difference but this thing is so incredibly consistent if that max discharge value is consistent.

While the times increased I was seeing the 440+ KW(448 KW max) of realtime power. Is it possible that they were trying out higher limits of power but then changed it back? It always stops at 436 KW now but for a brief time in the summer of 22 it was reading higher and the peak power seemed to increase slightly.

Is it possible that the Ludicrous Model 3 with a Panasonic battery will go higher than 436 KW, perhaps even go close to the 462 KW of the max discharge value?

Is it possible that they had a larger buffer in there than they actually needed and they are going to finally cut that buffer down or eliminate it all together?

I honestly think it's not so much about what the pack can as an absolute maximum but more what they feel they can safely let it do and not have a ton of battery claims when over 8 years or 120,000 miles the minimum capacity might drop below 70%. You know they will want a massive buffer there so that's an extremely rare claim and maybe as you get to the limits it really degrades the battery quite a bit quicker so they are keeping well clear of that.

 

[eivissa]

Is it possible that Tesla has changed the combined power limit with the Panasonic battery over the years?

Maybe in the States, but certainly not in Europe. This is Data from a Q4/2020 M3P Refresh 2021 and a Q2/2021 M3P Refresh 2021. These cars got an update in Q1/2021 that significantly improved low SOC performance and another one in Q2 which improved cold weather performance. The first one reduced minimum voltage from around 290V down to 260V. The second introduced or increased variable application of current. With colder cells the current was allowed to be increased to compensate for voltage drop. This data is filtered to only show datapoints created in 2021. 436kW was the absolute limit at all times. This peak power never changed. Today with the 3D6 rear motors, the power is actually a little less at around 430kW.

Is it possible that the Ludicrous Model 3 with a Panasonic battery will go higher than 436 KW, perhaps even go close to the 462 KW of the max discharge value?

The BMS says it can do 462kW in ideal conditions and this high value never changed, so yes, I can imagine that Tesla allows for 1350A with a hot pack, resulting in the 460kW peak battery power. The only problem I see is that the US M3L would be a significantly more potent car than the European/Asian version. More than it already is. I am not sure if Tesla is willing to do this, although these cars would never be in direct competition. Well, maybe due to logistical reasons in Canada, but who knows.

 

[oreobbq]

Maybe in the States, but certainly not in Europe. This is Data from a Q4/2020 M3P Refresh 2021 and a Q2/2021 M3P Refresh 2021. These cars got an update in Q1/2021 that significantly improved low SOC performance and another one in Q2 which improved cold weather performance. The first one reduced minimum voltage from around 290V down to 260V. The second introduced or increased variable application of current. With colder cells the current was allowed to be increased to compensate for voltage drop. This data is filtered to only show datapoints created in 2021. 436kW was the absolute limit at all times. This peak power never changed. Today with the 3D6 rear motors, the power is actually a little less at around 430kW.
View attachment 1036937

The BMS says it can do 462kW in ideal conditions and this high value never changed, so yes, I can imagine that Tesla allows for 1350A with a hot pack, resulting in the 460kW peak battery power. The only problem I see is that the US M3L would be a significantly more potent car than the European/Asian version. More than it already is. I am not sure if Tesla is willing to do this, although these cars would never be in direct competition. Well, maybe due to logistical reasons in Canada, but who knows.

Hello friend. You use X and have a helicopter in your photo so you must be credible. Can you extrapolate some estimates based off of the stuff you guys have been discussing? I see a bunch of words and charts and I keep scrolling to the next post lol.

0-60? 1/4 mile? It feels like a slow Tuesday.

 

[eivissa]

Hello friend. You use X and have a helicopter in your photo so you must be credible. Can you extrapolate some estimates based off of the stuff you guys have been discussing? I see a bunch of words and charts and I keep scrolling to the next post lol.

0-60? 1/4 mile? It feels like a slow Tuesday.

There are definitely others here, who are better at extrapolating power curve increases into drag time improvements.

I am also on the ball park 2.9s and sub 11s, but again, others do this kind of thing much better than me.

 

[cptnslo]

Was this shared already? Apologies if it has but can’t remember seeing it. I do remember reading and seeing the 4/20 mentions

https://twitter.com/x/status/1777327162967589294

 

[12B4A]

Was this shared already? Apologies if it has but can’t remember seeing it. I do remember reading and seeing the 4/20 mentions

https://twitter.com/x/status/1777327162967589294

Earnings call is April 23rd.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Earnings call is April 23rd.

Yes and seems highly unlikely they'd announce it on a Sat.

 

[tm1v2]

Unpopular opinion: Am I the only one here who feels the seats and damper upgrades are waaaay more needed and significant for the M3P than extra power? I've already upgraded my suspension but it sure would be nice to have decent front seats while retaining full OEM seat functionality and stock street car crash safety.

I'm sure I'd feel differently if I raced this car of course!

 

[spennnyy]

Safe to say no one knows when it'll come out. It felt like there was a good chance for beginning of April with the uncovered photos, but they must be giving media more time for their reviews.

I also would be surprised if they release it on a Saturday, so I think next best guess is alongside earnings on the 23rd.

So in other words: "two weeks."

 

[cptnslo]

Safe to say no one knows when it'll come out. It felt like there was a good chance for beginning of April with the uncovered photos, but they must be giving media more time for their reviews.

I also would be surprised if they release it on a Saturday, so I think next best guess is alongside earnings on the 23rd.

So in other words: "two weeks."

 

[mpgxsvcd]

So in other words: "two weeks."

It won’t be that long or someone will leak the information by then. I will be shocked if they don’t announce it sometime this week.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Unpopular opinion: Am I the only one here who feels the seats and damper upgrades are waaaay more needed and significant for the M3P than extra power? I've already upgraded my suspension but it sure would be nice to have decent front seats while retaining full OEM seat functionality and stock street car crash safety.

I'm sure I'd feel differently if I raced this car of course!

I'm with you. I'm not all that interested in extra performance, more if it can bring good comfort while having nice power. Even things like 19 inch wheels over 20 are important because 20's have too little sidewall for our roads.

I also don't care for the much more American view that it needs to be slammed, I don't want it scrapping on speed bumps and stopping me getting out of my village in one direction. Maybe a more European opinion but I also don't think they look very good like that either.

Fast but practical. If it cannot achieve that it'll have to be a Long Range.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

I'm with you. I'm not all that interested in extra performance, more if it can bring good comfort while having nice power. Even things like 19 inch wheels over 20 are important because 20's have too little sidewall for our roads.

I also don't care for the much more American view that it needs to be slammed, I don't want it scrapping on speed bumps and stopping me getting out of my village in one direction. Maybe a more European opinion but I also don't think they look very good like that either.

Fast but practical. If it cannot achieve that it'll have to be a Long Range.

The issue is that the LR is neither quick nor fast anymore since you can’t get the boost upgrade and the top speed is limited now.