Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[Gauss Guzzler]

This is a 0-110mph run I recently logged at 81% SOC and ~25C battery temp with no charging or conditioning.
The flat 420kW peak is from 42-58mph (not 69?) and regen is pretty stable around 134kW. Note that the BMS max allowable regen starts at 120kW and creeps up to 134kW during the run, perhaps due to cell heating.
But @gearchruncher is right that 65kW regen is pretty common for a well charged cold battery not in track mode, though 85kW is the official limit per CANbus messaging when no dots are displayed, and I routinely see it reach that. Hence the point I made about the brakes feeling inconsistent during extreme driving.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This is a 0-110mph run I recently logged at 81% SOC and ~25C battery temp with no charging or conditioning.
The flat 420kW peak is from 42-58mph (not 69?) and regen is pretty stable around 134kW. Note that the BMS max allowable regen starts at 120kW and creeps up to 134kW during the run, perhaps due to cell heating.
But @gearchruncher is right that 65kW regen is pretty common for a well charged cold battery not in track mode, though 85kW is the official limit per CANbus messaging when no dots are displayed, and I routinely see it reach that. Hence the point I made about the brakes feeling inconsistent during extreme driving.

View attachment 972851

Cool how it is way higher than Supercharging would be in those same conditions. Lithium plating anyone? I guess they either don’t worry about lithium plating, chalking it up to warranty expense paid for by Performance premium, or the duration matters (I am fairly sure it does due to the behavior of regen - where it gets more limited the more sustained it is). Probably matters less if there is more slosh like there would be on the track. No idea though.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Yeah, it's definitely duration-dependent. You'll see this anytime you go down a long hill with a marginally hungry battery, the dots just keep growing as you go. It used to be very unnerving before the blended brake option was added because the car would keep needing more and more brake pressure as if the brakes were failing.

And here's the trailing end of that data where the regen limit declines back down to 117kW within about 10 seconds:

 

[gearchruncher]

I think we're at the point where different age M3P's are not the same.

I just did multiple 100MPH to 40 MPH decelerations under regen. Max regen was 74kw. Batt was 28c, between 50% to 60% SoC. This is a 2018.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I think we're at the point where different age M3P's are not the same.

I just did multiple 100MPH to 40 MPH decelerations under regen. Max regen was 74kw. Batt was 28c, between 50% to 60% SoC. This is a 2018.

View attachment 972893

I assume this was in track mode? You did not specify.

 

[gearchruncher]

I assume this was in track mode? You did not specify.

Ahh, good point, no, that was normal street mode.
@Gauss Guzzler - was your log Track or standard?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Ahh, good point, no, that was normal street mode.
@Gauss Guzzler - was your log Track or standard?

Guessing since it was 0-110mph, all out, that would be Track Mode.

Also the rest of his post strongly implies that it was Track Mode.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Apologies for the tangent, but this is somewhat related to improvements that could potentially be made to the Highland (or OG) performance model with regards to braking consistency.

My battery was low today so I decided to lift off the Gauss and scored a new PB of 172kW regen (that's 230HP of deceleration!):

Then Crunchy's questions about 65kW max got me digging thru last month's logs and I found something interesting. This log looks pretty standard, notice the rear motor doing all of the braking before the run, then both motors sharing the 66kW regen at the end, just like you'd expect:

But 2 days later, notice the front motor doing all of the braking before the run and the rear motor supplying the entire regen at the end, briefly hitting 85kW this time:

The steering angle was around 4 degrees for the case where the rear motor hit 85kW all by itself, and 9 degrees in the case where the motors did a 25kW/35kW share. I don't know if there were other factors such as software updates.

 

[FreqFlyer]

https://x.com/ich04455057/status/1701597940446568671?s=20

 

[gearchruncher]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1701597940446568671

That dual motor variant has half the peak power that a current M3P does...

 

[E90alex]

That dual motor variant has half the peak power that a current M3P does...

I think a mistranslation? From the screen shots it seems:

RWD has 3D7 194kW rear motor

AWD has 3D3 134kW front motor and 3D7 194kW rear motor.

“Model 3+” maybe the new CATL M3P battery for increased range?

 

[Destiny1701]

you do all know that every decal is avail in China right? They are the mecca of auto decal manuf lol. Anyone can slap a plaid badge on a new 3 and take some pics.

Tesla does not refer to ‘model anything’ on any of their line up’s…not for some time now. Its T or now T E S L A and a dual motor or nothing or Plaid (SX)

Just saying

 

[SigNC]

Yeah, it's definitely duration-dependent. You'll see this anytime you go down a long hill with a marginally hungry battery, the dots just keep growing as you go.

I always just assumed this was the rectifier getting too hot as even a very brief period of respite and the dots go away.

 

[Destiny1701]

And no CF spoiler. This not a P.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I always just assumed this was the rectifier getting too hot as even a very brief period of respite and the dots go away.

This is not likely the limitation that causes this particular commonly observed behavior.

The motors are driven from a DC pack (via switching FETs in the inverter to provide the three-phase drive) so when operating in reverse through the inverter, I would think the conversion losses should be similar. (And should be very small by design!)

Also at low SOC, this decreasing regen does not occur (or at least it is not visible (maybe it is in track mode still), since the pack is so ready to accept charge without lithium plating concern). If it were inverter/heat limited, the SOC would not matter much at all (pack voltage would be only difference).

 

[maclean525]

Model 3+ is the new "LR" and Model 3 is the standard range car. There is no P at this time.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

OK, so this is an interesting theory about performance / non-performance brakes that ties into my regen plots above.

Hitachi is developing electric brake calipers intended to deliver vastly smoother/faster/better computer-initiated braking response. One obvious motivation for this would be to provide *nicely* blended brakes which could provide a comfortable 65kW regen for one-pedal driving that seamlessly increases to 172kW or more when the brake pedal is pressed and then seamlessly adds in friction only when needed.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1702928276224647654

 

[gearchruncher]

Ironically Brembo announced electric calipers in 2019.

Introducing the brake of the future! All of the benefits thanks to the new Brembo electric brakes

A leap into the future with Brembo brakes: changing the way you drive with benefits for drivers and for the environment.

www.brembo.com

And the Prius has blended brakes for a decade now without electric calipers.

Pretty sure Tesla avoids higher regen for battery health, not due to technical issues.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

I'm not aware of any car on the market with nicely blended brakes. Both Hitachi and Brembo even list well blended brakes as one of the core functionalities made possible by electric calipers. And what can a Prius even do anyway? Maybe 12kW? A driver can't tell the difference between squishy or smushy when lightly touching the pedal in a parking lot. But crank the regen up to 200kW and drivers are sure as heck gonna be sensitive to transition feel under medium/hard braking.

Also, there's little indication that fast charging is a significant factor in battery degradation, so a couple seconds of 172kW regen once a week is surely negligible.

I haven't seen a good description of Hitachi's system, but Brembo's looks like it uses a souped up parking brake motor on the rear calipers and a pair of ABS pumps to drive conventional hydraulic front calipers. The primary function and feedback are electric, but a conventional master cylinder will actuate the front calipers in the event of electrical failure.

 

[gearchruncher]

Brembo 100% has full electric calipers, and they literally developed it on a Model 3.

Brembo’s Sensify Takes Precise Braking Control to the Next Level

The new brake-by-wire system separately controls each corner with an electric motor.

www.caranddriver.com

The real question is why telsa doesn't allow 200kW regen in track mode? All the hardware is there. It would make a huge difference to track endurance and performance.