Model 3 Motors on the Tesla Parts Catalog

[diamond.g]

I’ll pull some can data on my way home from work and see what the max values for each is (assuming that PID is still exposed).

I have some data, but will have to see if I am misinterpreting what’s being shown. Basically it seems like the front and rear power ids show the same value. The largest value it reports for both seems to be 384 kW. Which clearly can’t be right.

 

[dennistdk]

I have some data, but will have to see if I am misinterpreting what’s being shown. Basically it seems like the front and rear power ids show the same value. The largest value it reports for both seems to be 384 kW. Which clearly can’t be right.

Interesting. Hope you can figure it out. What equipment/software are you using for reading it out from the car?

 

[diamond.g]

Interesting. Hope you can figure it out. What equipment/software are you using for reading it out from the car?

Using EVTV Motor Verks Store: Tesla Model 3 CAN Monitor BEFORE January 2019, OEM Electric Vehicle Items, TeslaModel3CANKit to collect the frames with SavvyCAN. They have a version that actually has a OBD2 port which would make things much easier for people.

 

[diamond.g]

Time: 49.538871    ID: 0x2E5 Std Bus: 0 Len: 8
Data Bytes: 0x00 0x00 0x05 0x32 0x04 0x00 0xDD 0x00
    FrontPowerDissipation2E5: -0.5kW
    FrontPower2E5: 258.5kW
    FrontHeatPowerOptimal2E5: 0.32kW
    FrontHeatPowerMax2E5: 0kW
    FrontHeatPower2E5: 17.68kW
    Front12vInverter2E5: 0Volts

Time: 49.538974    ID: 0x266 Std Bus: 0 Len: 8
Data Bytes: 0xDB 0x07 0x21 0x33 0x21 0x00 0x94 0x01
    RearHeatPowerOptimal266: 2.64kW
    RearHeatPowerMax266: 0kW
    RearHeatPower266: 11.84kW
    RearPowerDissipation266: 0.375kW
    RearPower266: 400.5kW
    Rear12vInverter266: 21.9Volts

Time: 49.539087    ID: 0x2E5 Std Bus: 0 Len: 8
Data Bytes: 0x00 0x00 0x05 0x32 0x04 0x00 0xDD 0x00
    FrontPowerDissipation2E5: -0.5kW
    FrontPower2E5: 258.5kW
    FrontHeatPowerOptimal2E5: 0.32kW
    FrontHeatPowerMax2E5: 0kW
    FrontHeatPower2E5: 17.68kW
    Front12vInverter2E5: 0Volts

Time: 49.542751    ID: 0x266 Std Bus: 0 Len: 8
Data Bytes: 0xDA 0x07 0x21 0x31 0x21 0x00 0x94 0x01
    RearHeatPowerOptimal266: 2.64kW
    RearHeatPowerMax266: 0kW
    RearHeatPower266: 11.84kW
    RearPowerDissipation266: 0.375kW
    RearPower266: 144.5kW
    Rear12vInverter266: 21.8Volts

So I ended up exporting the capture to text, it is like 130MB. The above snippet is the highest listed power for rear that my car claimed happened (or at least I got tired of incrementing the power to see). Interesting that the front power and the rear power are different though (before they were showing up as the same).

Time: 1433.670349    ID: 0x2E5 Std Bus: 0 Len: 8
Data Bytes: 0xC6 0x00 0x7D 0x7D 0xB5 0x00 0xDD 0x00
    FrontPowerDissipation2E5: -0.5kW
    FrontPower2E5: -321.5kW
    FrontHeatPowerOptimal2E5: 14.48kW
    FrontHeatPowerMax2E5: 0kW
    FrontHeatPower2E5: 17.68kW
    Front12vInverter2E5: 19.8Volts

Time: 1433.677997    ID: 0x266 Std Bus: 0 Len: 8
Data Bytes: 0x4D 0x01 0xCC 0xCC 0xC2 0x00 0x94 0x01
    RearHeatPowerOptimal266: 15.52kW
    RearHeatPowerMax266: 0kW
    RearHeatPower266: 11.84kW
    RearPowerDissipation266: -0.375kW
    RearPower266: -410kW
    Rear12vInverter266: 7.7Volts

Time: 1433.680952    ID: 0x2E5 Std Bus: 0 Len: 8
Data Bytes: 0xC9 0x00 0x7C 0x7C 0xB4 0x00 0xDD 0x00
    FrontPowerDissipation2E5: -0.5kW
    FrontPower2E5: -450kW
    FrontHeatPowerOptimal2E5: 14.4kW
    FrontHeatPowerMax2E5: 0kW
    FrontHeatPower2E5: 17.68kW
    Front12vInverter2E5: 20.1Volts

Time: 1433.700822    ID: 0x266 Std Bus: 0 Len: 8
Data Bytes: 0x5D 0x01 0xCD 0xCD 0xC4 0x00 0x94 0x01
    RearHeatPowerOptimal266: 15.68kW
    RearHeatPowerMax266: 0kW
    RearHeatPower266: 11.84kW
    RearPowerDissipation266: -0.375kW
    RearPower266: -281.5kW
    Rear12vInverter266: 9.3Volts

This is the highest regeneration that the car claimed is asked for (I guess). See caveat of my laziness on searching the text file.

 

[dennistdk]

    FrontPower2E5: 258.5kW
    RearPower266: 400.5kW

Thanks. That is quite interesting. Shows an almost perfect 40/60 power distribution between front and rear. Of course this is power going in, not to be directly compared with the power/effect coming out - and the two types of motors are different, probably with different efficiencies.

I'm not an expert in this at all, but if we assume they are roughly the same then with an AWD currently outputting something like 385hp after the 5% update, it would mean the distribution is something like this (assuming clean 60/40 split):

Power output:

Total measured: 287kW / 385hp
Front: 115kW / 155hp (40% of 385hp)
Rear: 172kW / 231hp (60% of 385hp)

Which means the front motor is also software throttled from 155kW down to 115kW, so it's not just the rear 990/980 (unless explained by different efficiencies).
Do you have some of the same numbers from a Performance model?

 

[diamond.g]

Thanks. That is quite interesting. Shows an almost perfect 40/60 power distribution between front and rear. Of course this is power going in, not to be directly compared with the power/effect coming out - and the two types of motors are different, probably with different efficiencies.

I'm not an expert in this at all, but if we assume they are roughly the same then with an AWD currently outputting something like 385hp after the 5% update, it would mean the distribution is something like this (assuming clean 60/40 split):

Power output:

Total measured: 287kW / 385hp
Front: 115kW / 155hp (40% of 385hp)
Rear: 172kW / 231hp (60% of 385hp)

Which means the front motor is also software throttled from 155kW down to 115kW, so it's not just the rear 990/980 (unless explained by different efficiencies).
Do you have some of the same numbers from a Performance model?

Sadly I don’t know anyone with a performance model.

 

[Saghost]

Thanks. That is quite interesting. Shows an almost perfect 40/60 power distribution between front and rear. Of course this is power going in, not to be directly compared with the power/effect coming out - and the two types of motors are different, probably with different efficiencies.

I'm not an expert in this at all, but if we assume they are roughly the same then with an AWD currently outputting something like 385hp after the 5% update, it would mean the distribution is something like this (assuming clean 60/40 split):

Power output:

Total measured: 287kW / 385hp
Front: 115kW / 155hp (40% of 385hp)
Rear: 172kW / 231hp (60% of 385hp)

Which means the front motor is also software throttled from 155kW down to 115kW, so it's not just the rear 990/980 (unless explained by different efficiencies).
Do you have some of the same numbers from a Performance model?

Using the Stats app that Tesla provided, there have been a few folks that documented that the PMSR motor installed in the front of Performance Ravens peaks at 177.5 kW on hard acceleration.

Not sure if it’s exactly the same as a 3 rear motor, let alone which one, but it seemed like it might be a useful reference point.

 

[dennistdk]

The perm magnet rear motor should be about 4% more efficient than the induction front (according to various "internet sources"), so it's not that big a difference for our calculations. It would just mean the front would be outputting something less like 110kW at it's current peak in the current AWD (compared to ~150kW in the Performance).

It also makes sense to limit both motors to keep somewhat the same balanced power distribution for handling.

For the Performance you see the exact same thing (almost 40/60% split according to the EU registration):

Front at 155kW / 208 hp
Rear at 205kW / 275 hp
Total: 360kW / 483 hp

Compared to the "speculated" AWD setup:

Front: 115kW / 155hp (40% of 385hp)
Rear: 172kW / 231hp (60% of 385hp)
Total measured: 287kW / 385hp


Anyways it does show that AWD is likely software limited on both the 960 front motor (as that is for sure the same motor in AWD/Performance) and the rear (depending on what the difference is between the 980 and 990).

 

[Krash]

...it does show that AWD is likely software limited on both the 960 front motor (as that is for sure the same motor in AWD/Performance) and the rear (depending on what the difference is between the 980 and 990).

Pretty sure the AWD S has total max torque and total power limits for the car as well as similar limits for the individual motors. It would make sense that the 3 does as well. The torque settings determine most of the early acceleration. The power limits show up in the quarter mile times and things like high speed passing.

 

[EvanLin]

Pretty sure the AWD S has total max torque and total power limits for the car as well as similar limits for the individual motors.

I was going to mention it. AFAIK, max. power of the car isn't simply adding up F & R motor power.
On MS, max. power of the car is limited by "battery power" (you can see it on wiki), which makes sense.

You can't get more power from battery pack, so that's it.
Also, power is a curve. Max. power of F & R motor may happen at different rpm.

 

[dennistdk]

I was going to mention it. AFAIK, max. power of the car isn't simply adding up F & R motor power.

If measured at the output stage you should be able to - and that is how the registrations in EU looks (each motor and a total listed). And to some extend there should at least be a correlation between input and output power (though the F and R motors have different efficiencies - the back being ~3% more efficient afaik).

 

[EvanLin]

If measured at the output stage you should be able to - and that is how the registrations in EU looks (each motor and a total listed).

Thanks for clarify. That's an important info.
Can you share which website can I check EU spec?

 

[dennistdk]

Thanks for clarify. That's an important info.
Can you share which website can I check EU spec?

If you know the license plates / VIN numbers you can look them up (different website for each country). Like for Norway it is here: Kjøretøyopplysninger | Statens vegvesen and for Denmark it would be Vis køretøj - DMR Kerne.

In Norway you can see each motor separately and in Denmark it's combined.

So a Performance in Norway would look like this (for a pre 5% performance):



HK is metric horsepower.
And in Denmark it would be combined like this (for a newer performance):



You can find license plates to look up by finding some local Tesla forums / facebook groups where people post pictures.
It's more or less the same for other European countries if you know the websites.

 

[tshong]

Hi all,

Just contributing to the data collection. I bought a P3D- (stealth / sleeper performance) manufactured 9/15/2019. Mine shows a 980 rear motor. See image below:

 

[EvanLin]

This is from the latest owner's manual (v2019.36.1). Spec secured!

 

[MP3Mike]

This is from the latest owner's manual (v2019.36.1). Spec secured!

View attachment 475142

Do you have a link to this version of the manual?

 

[EvanLin]

Do you have a link to this version of the manual?

Sure.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/model_3_owners_manual_north_america_en.pdf

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This is from the latest owner's manual (v2019.36.1). Spec secured!

View attachment 475142

Thanks.

This new Owner's Manual info has been posted a couple other places, and it is kind of strange that these newly published numbers do not align with reality. I have looked up ECE R85 and it does appear to be an “at the motor output” measurement (correct for drivetrain losses). (There is an explicit line about this in the regulation.)

So for the Performance, we know the peak HP to the wheels (not sure whether it is with 36.1 though) is about 465HP. That's the dyno measurement from the @MountainPass video (there's an issue with their plot perhaps so maybe ignore the axis there - the video is very clear though). The @SleeperService measurement shows closer to 450HP with 2019.36.1 (but does not account for about 5-10HP of wind drag at 50-55MPH, and may not have been a fully battery-optimized run). Both these measurement peaks are around 5500RPM. But 339kW (202kW+137kW, which don't even occur at the same RPM...) is “only” 454HP at the motor output.

So something does not quite add up. Though it isn’t that far off.

That being said, the Tesla Parts Catalog (which now requires a Tesla account to access) seems to be indicating that the actual numbers are 630A and 840A (though that is speculative, as the units of amps are not specified on the reman part), as discussed earlier in this thread. There is still no detailed info in the part catalog about the inverters. It's blocked out. (They used to be called out and there are screen captures earlier in this thread.)

So to me it looks like this manual may not be quite up to date with even the FIRST power boost. These may be the original motor & inverter specs.

All speculation though. I really don't know.

 

[dennistdk]

As I wrote in the other thread then those numbers in the manual doesn't seem right (both input and output wise). It's too low for the Performance and too high for the AWD currently.

From the CAN data it seems like each motor is pulling something like this at input level at it's max output:

Performance max:
Rear: 246kW @ 337V ~730A
Front: 186kW @335V ~ 555A

AWD max:
Rear 220kW @ 350V? ~ 628A
Front: 132kW @ 350V? ~ 377A


On the output side the Performance should be closer to 512hp and 405hp for AWD after the 2019.36 update. And not 455hp (Performance) and 425hp (AWD) as in the manual (assuming they can be added).

Just did a quick search and found that some cars registrered in the last few days in DK had some update to their listed output kw/hp. Only found for SR+ and AWD, but the SR+ is now registrered at 239kW / 325 hp(m) / 320hp(i) and the AWD is at 361kw / 491 hp(m) / 484 hp(i). For the SR+ (with a 980 motor) this seems to be new record.

I wasn't able to find a Performance yet (probably none was registered in the last two days, most seemed to be SR+). But it's worth noting that the AWD is now officially listed at higher output than the Performance was a few weeks ago (Performance was at 360kW).

 

[LD83]

If you're still keeping tabs on rear DU part #s, picked up a 10/19 build P3D- (stealth) last week -- has 980 (1120980-00-G) as expected.