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Model 3 Performance Battery Degradation One Month (Story)
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For the past couple weeks I stopped charging everyday. After a few deeper cycles my 90% end of charge went from 266 to 273 as of today. Every charge increasing 1-2miles more than the last. It used to be 277/276 until an update I got in March, after which it dropped suddenly to 273.
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M109Rider
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Edit: I typically leave my state of charge at 90%. Even going to a low charge, then back up to 90% doesn’t usually have a huge impact on my state of charge. It might move the range a kilometre or so going up and down.
Generally going above 90% and down has more effect on moving the state of charge needle, rather than just 90%.
Again, no idea if this improves actual range though.
I'll add my data point. I have an AWD Model 3. It has 9600 miles on the odometer.
I was routinely getting 274 miles at 90%, 304-307 miles at 100%. Since the 16.2 update dropped, I noticed a sudden drop in rated range. I now get 266 miles at 90%, 294 miles at 100%. I keep the battery SOC mostly between 30-90%, rarely charge to 100% (just twice in the past 3 months). I had the SC do a remote diagnostic and I got a call back stating "there is no hardware issue with your car at this time".
This morning, I starting charging at 30% to 90% and ended with 262 miles. Its the creep downward that bothers me the most, especially losing 20-25 miles off the top end could mean the difference between being able to skip a Supercharger on a long trip and having to stop early.
I have tried deep discharges (to less than 30 rated miles on the range) and charging to 90% but it has made no difference in this continued sudden drop in rated battery capacity.
I was routinely getting 274 miles at 90%, 304-307 miles at 100%. Since the 16.2 update dropped, I noticed a sudden drop in rated range. I now get 266 miles at 90%, 294 miles at 100%. I keep the battery SOC mostly between 30-90%, rarely charge to 100% (just twice in the past 3 months). I had the SC do a remote diagnostic and I got a call back stating "there is no hardware issue with your car at this time".
This morning, I starting charging at 30% to 90% and ended with 262 miles. Its the creep downward that bothers me the most, especially losing 20-25 miles off the top end could mean the difference between being able to skip a Supercharger on a long trip and having to stop early.
I have tried deep discharges (to less than 30 rated miles on the range) and charging to 90% but it has made no difference in this continued sudden drop in rated battery capacity.
This is quite an interesting thread but very helpful.
My Performance will be my primary vehicle for work, 45-50k miles per year for work alone. Yesterday I took it to work for the first time. I charged to 100% and went 295 miles before getting home at 8%.
Granted I did a couple launches for the coworkers to convert them and my AP was set to 85mph to work.
I had a demo car for testing if it could get to work and back, it fared far better with 21% remaining and driving it like I stole it.
There's two differences that I realized... I had used Sentry, which downloaded 39GB of data before shutting off when I had under 21%. Then the demo car had 2019.20+ software while I'm still back on 2019.15 (I swear I had 2019.25 or something as I swear I had the beach buggy game.).
I believe the rule of thumb for Sentry is 1% per hour, so maybe my car actually fared better since my usage of the car was 12 hours, 4hrs driving and 8hrs of work.
My Performance will be my primary vehicle for work, 45-50k miles per year for work alone. Yesterday I took it to work for the first time. I charged to 100% and went 295 miles before getting home at 8%.
Granted I did a couple launches for the coworkers to convert them and my AP was set to 85mph to work.
I had a demo car for testing if it could get to work and back, it fared far better with 21% remaining and driving it like I stole it.
There's two differences that I realized... I had used Sentry, which downloaded 39GB of data before shutting off when I had under 21%. Then the demo car had 2019.20+ software while I'm still back on 2019.15 (I swear I had 2019.25 or something as I swear I had the beach buggy game.).
I believe the rule of thumb for Sentry is 1% per hour, so maybe my car actually fared better since my usage of the car was 12 hours, 4hrs driving and 8hrs of work.
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navguy12
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Your photo shows 195.1 miles on the trip odometer, I assume you meant 195 miles with 8% remaining.
AWD, 10 months old today. (this is my 5th EV, and I have about 300k of EV driving experience)
OK, I'm finally jumping into the thread. Most of the conversation here is about reported range. While my loss of reported range concerns me, my loss of REAL range (battery capacity) concerns me even more. Tesla checked my battery using their mysterious CAC Fleet Checker, and they plotted my car on their curve of "average" battery degradation across cars of similar age and mileage. My car sits on the bad side of the curve. Tesla says that my capacity does not reside in their "concerning bounds." They won't say what those bounds are. For the record, Tesla claims that the average battery capacity of similar vehicles to mine is 211.9 Ah. (What Voltage are they assuming? What's the Ah rating of the new pack? If we can assume 350V, then new is 214 Ah?)
Can we all agree that 242 Wh/mi is the magic number to hit ~310 miles in a car that has a 75 kWh pack? For me, that's my benchmark. A fresh LR battery should return 310 miles by driving an average of 242 Wh/mi, regardless of any other factor (Tesla loves to tell me that my driving style can affect range... sigh).
So what am I seeing with actual driving? 295 miles of real range when I drive at 225 Wh/mi average. At that efficiency with a new battery, I should see 333 miles of range. So to me, this is a REAL range loss of ~ 38 miles.
In the meantime, my friends, family and neighbors who have Model 3's are *not seeing* this drop in range. At most they've lost one or two miles of range in about the same time as I have. And the difference? I'm the only one who takes care of my pack. Others have driven below 0% SOC... and that same driver also charges to 100% quite often... and leaves it sitting at full charge for days. In the heat. And he supercharges regularly. Me? I keep it in the sweet spot. I've been down to 10% twice. I've been to 100% twice. I've never super-charged. I charge at 40A at home and generally keep the car at 75-90% SOC. I drive very gently at low SOC the few times I do it. In short, those who are abusing their packs seem to be doing much better than I am.
Here's my latest Tesla Stats chart. Too bad I didn't have this app from the first day. It doesn't indicate that the graph was pretty flat until about 5,000 miles, and then it has seen a consistent decline.
OK, I'm finally jumping into the thread. Most of the conversation here is about reported range. While my loss of reported range concerns me, my loss of REAL range (battery capacity) concerns me even more. Tesla checked my battery using their mysterious CAC Fleet Checker, and they plotted my car on their curve of "average" battery degradation across cars of similar age and mileage. My car sits on the bad side of the curve. Tesla says that my capacity does not reside in their "concerning bounds." They won't say what those bounds are. For the record, Tesla claims that the average battery capacity of similar vehicles to mine is 211.9 Ah. (What Voltage are they assuming? What's the Ah rating of the new pack? If we can assume 350V, then new is 214 Ah?)
Can we all agree that 242 Wh/mi is the magic number to hit ~310 miles in a car that has a 75 kWh pack? For me, that's my benchmark. A fresh LR battery should return 310 miles by driving an average of 242 Wh/mi, regardless of any other factor (Tesla loves to tell me that my driving style can affect range... sigh).
So what am I seeing with actual driving? 295 miles of real range when I drive at 225 Wh/mi average. At that efficiency with a new battery, I should see 333 miles of range. So to me, this is a REAL range loss of ~ 38 miles.
In the meantime, my friends, family and neighbors who have Model 3's are *not seeing* this drop in range. At most they've lost one or two miles of range in about the same time as I have. And the difference? I'm the only one who takes care of my pack. Others have driven below 0% SOC... and that same driver also charges to 100% quite often... and leaves it sitting at full charge for days. In the heat. And he supercharges regularly. Me? I keep it in the sweet spot. I've been down to 10% twice. I've been to 100% twice. I've never super-charged. I charge at 40A at home and generally keep the car at 75-90% SOC. I drive very gently at low SOC the few times I do it. In short, those who are abusing their packs seem to be doing much better than I am.
Here's my latest Tesla Stats chart. Too bad I didn't have this app from the first day. It doesn't indicate that the graph was pretty flat until about 5,000 miles, and then it has seen a consistent decline.
I don't believe it is 242, but most likely 230 wh/mile to hit 310 miles. Thats what I am noticing in my car.
Also how did you get all those data points for range on 100% charge? Did you actually charge to 100% that many times? I know you said you didn't, but then wondering how you got those data points?
230 wh/mile for 310 miles would indicate that the pack in our cars is only ~ 71 kWh. I think that there is general consensus for the pack being about 75 kWh. I'm looking at nothing but the math here. If 230 Wh/mile is what it takes for you to travel 310 miles on a full charge, then you're looking at a ~5% loss of capacity.
As for the graph - that's something that the Stats app does with the info that the car provides. I did not make the plot (You've seen the same chart earlier in this thread from other posters) At a minimum it is a projected 100% range number by taking my miles reported and dividing by the percentage of SOC. (Same thing we all do manually to determine our full range from our less-than-100%-SOC charge.)
I think 242Wh/m is correct. I would just say that Stats range number is always just a little off, under, what the car says. It doesn't seem to adjust for phantom drain. My range chart used to decline like yours, then logging out and then back in and clearing the data and starting over, now my range chart is going up. Was it wrong before and correct now, or right before and incorrect now? So, I don't completely trust the data Stats is pulling off the car.
When you drive it, how's your range relative to SOC usage?
When you drive it, how's your range relative to SOC usage?
Interesting to hear. Mine is always within a rounding choice. Never more than one mile difference.
I'm not sure I fully understand the question. Are you asking how my actual miles driven compare to the range estimator? Or how my actual miles driven compare to percentage of SOC?
What I can tell you for sure is that if I drive at an efficiency that should return over 330 miles or range, the estimator AND my actual miles tell me that I'll be short of that by about 40 miles. The range estimator is quite accurate.
Hey! You are clearly in the wrong thread! This one is just for complainers.
I have been a regular complainer here, but think that what degradation I have seen, about half of it has been due to the algorithm.
I recently took a long 4k mile road trip and so had an opportunity to drain the battery really low and recharge to full. I went as low as 18 miles, then did a supercharge in Blanding Ut. I was able to charge to 297 miles at 100%, much better than I had been seeing before the trip. Now after the trip my 90% charge is 266 miles, where before it had been 257 miles at 90%.
I have 25k miles on it now, so just about 4.2% degradation. I suspect that if I had been brave enough to go to a deeper discharge I might have regained more indicated range.
I am leaving my charge percentage set to 90% these days as well.
I recently took a long 4k mile road trip and so had an opportunity to drain the battery really low and recharge to full. I went as low as 18 miles, then did a supercharge in Blanding Ut. I was able to charge to 297 miles at 100%, much better than I had been seeing before the trip. Now after the trip my 90% charge is 266 miles, where before it had been 257 miles at 90%.
I have 25k miles on it now, so just about 4.2% degradation. I suspect that if I had been brave enough to go to a deeper discharge I might have regained more indicated range.
I am leaving my charge percentage set to 90% these days as well.
Good data, Vines, thanks. Unless somebody knows that the car is doing any balancing at the bottom, I'm not sure how draining the pack could help put things on track better. Almost nothing good comes from low SOC. Seems that all of the balancing is happening at the top. And it also sounds like 90% charging is a good idea.
Wouldn't it be grand if Tesla would come out and state *clearly* what is best for us to be doing? This conflict of what the manual says, what Elon has said, and what the service folks are saying... is a bit troubling.
Wouldn't it be grand if Tesla would come out and state *clearly* what is best for us to be doing? This conflict of what the manual says, what Elon has said, and what the service folks are saying... is a bit troubling.
I think that the reason to go to the bottom of the "tank" is that after many many calculations and never seeing the bottom the algorithm loses its "place" and gradually drifts more and more incorrectly, maybe some rounding error or similar.
It makes sense that this most often happens to reduce range, as if the code allowed it to gradually increase mileage it would be stranding people. They would think there is capacity left, keep driving and this would be a larger issue than some customers complaining about lost range.
Its not ideal, but its better than pumping gas.
It makes sense that this most often happens to reduce range, as if the code allowed it to gradually increase mileage it would be stranding people. They would think there is capacity left, keep driving and this would be a larger issue than some customers complaining about lost range.
Its not ideal, but its better than pumping gas.
Thanks man. Just looking for thoughts as to why my battery isn’t doing the things that everyone else has. Yup I’m lucky but there has to be a reason why all the folks on this forum have the issues that I don’t. Charging habits, driving habits? I’m really curious.Hey! You are clearly in the wrong thread! This one is just for complainers.
There are always outliers. And you outlied the good way, apparently. There is *nothing* that will chemically add capacity to these batteries over time. So what you are seeing must be a positive accounting situation. And at one point Tesla did say that the RWD folks would be blessed with more usable range. So they may have just opened up your spigot a bit. :shrug: Dunno.
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