Model 3 Supercharging Capable Discussion

[tkizzy]

If it came down to bringing back the deprecated 2000$ fee to enable supercharging once again, and they don't feel the cost of the car as is covers it, I think they'd be better served from a brand-value and marketing point of view to increase the base cost of the car to 37,000 (same as the bolt!) so they could say free supercharging included FOR ALL VEHICLES. I think there's a really valuable message to consumers there, and a strong incentive to adopt evs.

As for abuse - it's gonna happen, but this works like insurance - not all people are going to "get their moneys worth" of supercharging. Others will use more. Balance is the name of the game in the end.

 

[igotzzoom]

You leave. When it's your car's turn it self-parks itself into the correct stall, and proceeds to be penetrated by the Electric Phallus. When done it parks it at the nearest parking stall near where you parked it.

 

[MP3Mike]

If it came down to bringing back the deprecated 2000$ fee to enable supercharging once again, and they don't feel the cost of the car as is covers it, I think they'd be better served from a brand-value and marketing point of view to increase the base cost of the car to 37,000 (same as the bolt!) so they could say free supercharging included FOR ALL VEHICLES.

I don't agree, I think marking the car up ~6% to include Supercharging would slow down adoption. Let people get it as their primary commuter car, and then once they use it they will love it so much they will plan to save the extra $2,500 so they can use the Superchargers and get rid of their ICE. (Assuming that they would ever have the need.)

I do see the point in making everyone pay to build and support the network, but that might price the car out of reach of some people.

As I have said before I think Tesla is waiting to calculate the final build price of the car, at which point they can see if they can allocate $2k, out of the $35k, towards the Supercharger network, or if they have to make it an option.

 

[ohmman]

Why would you spend 2K for something that you would only use a few times per year? Yet, when you do need it, it's invaluable.

This is one reason I think flat fee (incorporated into all the vehicles standard; let's call it the capability fee) in addition to paid usage (occupancy fee) is a good model.

The capability fee can be used to built out and support the network. For those who buy the car and rarely use it, since this fee is just included in the price of the car, they're invisibly subsidizing the network (which is currently listed as a marketing expense, so this doesn't seem at all unsavory to me).

Some type of occupancy fee creates the appropriate disincentive to abuse or overuse, but doesn't need to be enough to pay for the network. It'll supply some level of income, potentially offsetting some electrical costs, but mostly will be there to act as an economic incentive to relieve potential congestion.

It's not a perfect system - some congestion periods are going to still be congested. But I do think it would be relatively effective.

 

[WilliamZ]

standard or not, the bottom line is: we need more stations. Otherwise, what is the use if you have to wait hours before charging up.

 

[yesup]

...I think they'd be better served from a brand-value and marketing point of view to increase the base cost of the car to 37,000 (same as the bolt!) so they could say free supercharging included FOR ALL VEHICLES.

Many many buyers would disagree. There are many buyers who would prefer to save $2,000 instead of being forced to buy an option that they may never use.

 

[ohmman]

mod note: overlapping threads merged. Sorry for any resulting confusion.

 

[Twiglett]

dead horse extremely well beaten, over and over again.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Exactly Tesla has said that they set aside $500, or was it $600, of the Supercharger fee/cost of car to cover electricity expenses. So I would say $1,000 would be the minimum, but more likely $1,500-2,000.

They said $500 in their 2013 and 2014 SEC filings (rather it was calculated from how much money they reported was set aside from revenue to support supercharging and how many deliveries for those years and both years it came out to exactly $500). In their 2015 SEC filing, they no longer report this figure, so who knows how much they are setting aside now.

 

[stopcrazypp]

There is another angle no one brought up, but something I had pondered about a long while back (since release of CHAdeMO adapter). With the prevalence of CHAdeMO and CCS growing (with Tesla joining the CCS group CharIN as a core member), it would be interesting to see if DC charging capability is included in the Model 3.

For the S60, DC charging hardware activation costs $1400, then you add the cost of the CHAdeMO adapter. Now Tesla says "supercharger capable" for the Model 3; if that also means DC charging capable, then presumably you can just buy a CHadeMO adapter (or CCS when Tesla comes out with that) and use that for DC charging for no further activation fee. This would be separate from supercharger activation.

While most DC charging are options in EVs today (like Leaf and Spark), it is standard for some (i3 and e-Golf).

 

[houdini]

There is another angle no one brought up, but something I had pondered about a long while back (since release of CHAdeMO adapter). With the prevalence of CHAdeMO and CCS growing (with Tesla joining the CCS group CharIN as a core member), it would be interesting to see if DC charging capability is included in the Model 3.

For the S60, DC charging hardware activation costs $1400, then you add the cost of the CHAdeMO adapter. Now Tesla says "supercharger capable" for the Model 3; if that also means DC charging capable, then presumably you can just buy a CHadeMO adapter (or CCS when Tesla comes out with that) and use that for DC charging for no further activation fee. This would be separate from supercharger activation.

While most DC charging are options in EVs today (like Leaf and Spark), it is standard for some (i3 and e-Golf).

Interesting point. With more and more DC chargers going in this will ease the load on the supercharger network, especially around this local charging issue. I understand a lot of the chademo and such chargers are still free so that's a decent option. Also if you lve close to other charger types you could save your $2000 for supercharging and instead buy the $500 chademo adapter.

I've also been thinking: superchargers are free therefore people seem to be fairly friendly with allowing others to charge if they need it more, being civil, patient etc. If there's a fee you might have behaviours where people start thinking "well I am paying for this so I'll stay as long as I like!" If it's a paid service can you see someone who's halfway through a charge moving aside for someone who needs it more to get home or something?

 

[MassModel3]

dead horse extremely well beaten, over and over again.

 

[tkizzy]

Many many buyers would disagree. There are many buyers who would prefer to save $2,000 instead of being forced to buy an option that they may never use.

Yes, given the choice, on an individual basis - definitely. I'm saying it would behoove the image/pop culture of the Tesla experience to include supercharging and be done with it from the consumer's point of view. If the business requirements of this are genuinely a price premium, I think the brand would be better served by just having the feature rolled into the base model, than it would by a 2k(or less) savings.

I'm still holding out hope that supercharging will remain free and included at the current price.

 

[FlatSix911]

More reports ... Tesla walking back some language around the Model 3’s features: Safety, Autopilot and Supercharger

Finally the Supercharging feature. When the feature first appeared on the website, the mention of “long distance travel” pointed to the exact same setup as the Model S and X. The access to Tesla’s network of Superchargers is standard for all Tesla vehicles, but for long distance travel only – meaning that it is frowned upon for a Model S owner to regularly charge at a local Supercharger.

Now Tesla changed it to “Supercharger capable”, meaning that the Model 3 will be able to take DC fast-charging, but it doesn’t mean that it will have “free” access to Superchargers. In comparison, DC fast-charging capacity is optional on the Chevy Bolt regardless of any access to a charging network.

From these movements it seems clear that Tesla is signaling that Supercharging will be an optional, paid feature but we’ll wait to hear that directly from the company. A Tesla spokesperson is on the record saying:

All Model 3 will have the capability for Supercharging. We haven’t specified (and aren’t right now) whether supercharging will be free. As a price comparison, original Model S lower end models require a $2500 upgrade to enable supercharging.

 

[akgolf]

New member here.

Tesla changed the wording again. 5-Star Safety Rating is back, but wording a little different. And it now just says Supercharging, not capable. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I take that to mean included now.

• 
  Designed to achieve
  5-Star Safety Rating
  
  
• Supercharging
  

 

[stopcrazypp]

New member here.

Tesla changed the wording again. 5-Star Safety Rating is back, but wording a little different. And it now just says Supercharging, not capable. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I take that to mean included now.

• 
  Designed to achieve
  5-Star Safety Rating
  
  
• Supercharging

I wouldn't be stressing out too much over that page. If they can change it, they can change it back. Until we get an official confirmation from Tesla that clarifies 100%, I don't think we can make any assumptions.

 

[houdini]

I wouldn't be stressing out too much over that page. If they can change it, they can change it back. Until we get an official confirmation from Tesla that clarifies 100%, I don't think we can make any assumptions.

Bodes well though given they changed it away and it generated a bit of press. Now it's changed back to what it was and they didn't have to do that.

 

[CuriousG]

There is another angle no one brought up, but something I had pondered about a long while back (since release of CHAdeMO adapter). With the prevalence of CHAdeMO and CCS growing (with Tesla joining the CCS group CharIN as a core member), it would be interesting to see if DC charging capability is included in the Model 3.

For the S60, DC charging hardware activation costs $1400, then you add the cost of the CHAdeMO adapter. Now Tesla says "supercharger capable" for the Model 3; if that also means DC charging capable, then presumably you can just buy a CHadeMO adapter (or CCS when Tesla comes out with that) and use that for DC charging for no further activation fee. This would be separate from supercharger activation.

While most DC charging are options in EVs today (like Leaf and Spark), it is standard for some (i3 and e-Golf).

I always thought the Supercharger access was $2000 for the S60? Supercharger requires some type of authentication. I don't think that's the case for CHAdeMO or CCS so it doesn't make sense to block them out too without paying up front in addition to paying for each use.

Would be funny to see how other EV owners will react once all the CHAdeMO DCFCs are taken up by Model 3 owners. Considering the CHAdeMO adapter is now $450, not sure if a ton of Model 3 adopters will go that route unless Supercharger travel is really daunting.

 

[Snowdog]

The problem with not charging a usage fee, is that it creates a large, unfunded, future liability.

AFAICT, the Supercharger fees charged Explicitly and later Hidden in the Model S, and Model X, simply ended up in general revenues.

There is no large fund being created to support future supercharger usage/maintenance.

Instead Tesla is relying of future car sales to support the ongoing usage by past buyers.

Continuing to use new buyers to support the costs created by past buyers, is a house of cards, like a Ponzi scheme.

At some point you end up with a huge liability and no revenue stream to support it.

Tesla needs to get it's *sugar* together, and properly fund the Supercharger Network.

Pay per use, not only provides ongoing revenue, it also discourages abuse. It's the right thing to do.

 

[JRP3]

For the S60, DC charging hardware activation costs $1400

I always thought the Supercharger access was $2000 for the S60?

Yes, I thought it was $2K for SC at purchase and $2.5K after purchase.