Model 3 Track Day: Laguna Seca

[arnis]

Get new OEM brake pads. Then replace brake fluid with OEM fluid, do a test drive (10 minutes with some moderate braking) and then fill brake fluid to the max line (or let the workshop do that). There is no such thing as "high performance brake fluid". Get fresh standard quality fluid (sealed).
Do the race again with regen Normal. If brake pads actually fail again, report here and contact Tesla. Because this is nonsense.
Model 3 is considered sporty. Especially with suspension settings in mind. Having mild brake pads doesn't make sense.
I'm imagining doing 100-130mph on autobahn and having many heavy braking events. Not that different. Much more dangerous.


@mattcrowley
Question, didn't you get this symbol on the dash?

Or this:

If not, it appears to be safety issue. Brake reservoir MUST have level sensor and it must trigger immediately!
Question 2: did you hear the squeaking? Tesla doesn't have brake pad wear sensor, they apparently use noise to inform owner about worn brake pad.

Brake rotor and pad temperature can have virtual temperature sensor. If they fail again, I'd recommend Tesla to fix the problem in one or another way, otherwise it might end with factory recall. Brakes can't fail without warning. There is an appropriate brake system for appropriate drivetrain.
Example. BMW. Same chassis, same model. Engine with 135kW power vs same engine with 142kW power (different software). One car accepts 15" wheels but the second one does not. Requires 16". Why? More power to accelerate, more power to brake. Bigger rotors, larger brake pad.


PS:
Just made up a sign Tesla could use if they actually don't want to upgrade brake pads and want to go with software patch (virtual sensor).

How brake pads fail:
Either binder in the friction material fails (brake pad will erode rapidly), binder will sweat (acts as lubricator, weak braking while pedal hard), or binder between friction pad and base fails. Ends with a bang and brake failure, at least for a moment.
Brake pad manufacturer sets maximum brake pad temperature limit car should obey.
Rotors can overheat, but usually pads.Overheated rotors will change color to purple. Can get warped. It is recommended to have brake pads mild enough not to damage the brake discs.

Brake fluid problem was weird. Usually, if filled to MAX, it should not run to zero, even when all 8 pads are worn down to base plate.

 

[30seconds]

Get new OEM brake pads. Then replace brake fluid with OEM fluid, do a test drive (10 minutes with some moderate braking) and then fill brake fluid to the max line (or let the workshop do that). There is no such thing as "high performance brake fluid". Get fresh standard quality fluid (sealed).
Do the race again with regen Normal. If brake pads actually fail again, report here and contact Tesla. Because this is nonsense.
Model 3 is considered sporty. Especially with suspension settings in mind. Having mild brake pads doesn't make sense.
I'm imagining doing 100-130mph on autobahn and having many heavy braking events. Not that different. Much more dangerous.


@mattcrowley
Question, didn't you get this symbol on the dash?

Or this:

If not, it appears to be safety issue. Brake reservoir MUST have level sensor and it must trigger immediately!
Question 2: did you hear the squeaking? Tesla doesn't have brake pad wear sensor, they apparently use noise to inform owner about worn brake pad.

Brake rotor and pad temperature can have virtual temperature sensor. If they fail again, I'd recommend Tesla to fix the problem in one or another way, otherwise it might end with factory recall. Brakes can't fail without warning. There is an appropriate brake system for appropriate drivetrain.
Example. BMW. Same chassis, same model. Engine with 135kW power vs same engine with 142kW power (different software). One car accepts 15" wheels but the second one does not. Requires 16". Why? More power to accelerate, more power to brake. Bigger rotors, larger brake pad.


PS:
Just made up a sign Tesla could use if they actually don't want to upgrade brake pads and want to go with software patch (virtual sensor).

How brake pads fail:
Either binder in the friction material fails (brake pad will erode rapidly), binder will sweat (acts as lubricator, weak braking while pedal hard), or binder between friction pad and base fails. Ends with a bang and brake failure, at least for a moment.
Brake pad manufacturer sets maximum brake pad temperature limit car should obey.
Rotors can overheat, but usually pads.Overheated rotors will change color to purple. Can get warped. It is recommended to have brake pads mild enough not to damage the brake discs.

Brake fluid problem was weird. Usually, if filled to MAX, it should not run to zero, even when all 8 pads are worn down to base plate.

Couldn't disagree with you more. No volume production cars are set up for hot laps at Laguna Seca.

 

[mattack4000]

Please don’t give advice to track cars if you have never been on one. You can’t be more off

 

[SMAlset]

I see @mattcrowley that Jalopnik basically took your whole posting here for their article on your Laguna Seca run...and added that clearly you weren't a pro driver.

Loved what I saw of it of your video (really slow cellular connection right now and will rewatch when I get wifi connection). Use to watch a number of televised races there a number of years ago. Looks like you had a fun day.

So I have a question on Model 3 brake pads. Likely organic ones used?

 

[PhantomX]

Get new OEM brake pads. Then replace brake fluid with OEM fluid, do a test drive (10 minutes with some moderate braking) and then fill brake fluid to the max line (or let the workshop do that). There is no such thing as "high performance brake fluid". Get fresh standard quality fluid (sealed).
Do the race again with regen Normal. If brake pads actually fail again, report here and contact Tesla. Because this is nonsense.
Model 3 is considered sporty. Especially with suspension settings in mind. Having mild brake pads doesn't make sense.
I'm imagining doing 100-130mph on autobahn and having many heavy braking events. Not that different. Much more dangerous.


@mattcrowley
Question, didn't you get this symbol on the dash?

Or this:

If not, it appears to be safety issue. Brake reservoir MUST have level sensor and it must trigger immediately!
Question 2: did you hear the squeaking? Tesla doesn't have brake pad wear sensor, they apparently use noise to inform owner about worn brake pad.

Brake rotor and pad temperature can have virtual temperature sensor. If they fail again, I'd recommend Tesla to fix the problem in one or another way, otherwise it might end with factory recall. Brakes can't fail without warning. There is an appropriate brake system for appropriate drivetrain.
Example. BMW. Same chassis, same model. Engine with 135kW power vs same engine with 142kW power (different software). One car accepts 15" wheels but the second one does not. Requires 16". Why? More power to accelerate, more power to brake. Bigger rotors, larger brake pad.


PS:
Just made up a sign Tesla could use if they actually don't want to upgrade brake pads and want to go with software patch (virtual sensor).

How brake pads fail:
Either binder in the friction material fails (brake pad will erode rapidly), binder will sweat (acts as lubricator, weak braking while pedal hard), or binder between friction pad and base fails. Ends with a bang and brake failure, at least for a moment.
Brake pad manufacturer sets maximum brake pad temperature limit car should obey.
Rotors can overheat, but usually pads.Overheated rotors will change color to purple. Can get warped. It is recommended to have brake pads mild enough not to damage the brake discs.

Brake fluid problem was weird. Usually, if filled to MAX, it should not run to zero, even when all 8 pads are worn down to base plate.

Track is very different than highway driving, even autobahn. I don't think anyone would do a full acceleration for a few seconds, then slam on the brake, and do that 10 to 15 times over a span of 2 minutes. That's basically what it's like on a track. Just about every braking event is full pedal to the metal, as late as possible, and then as soon as you clear apex, you plant the acceleration pedal to the floor as quickly as possible. Repeat that, corner after corner. Stock brake pad and fluid aren't designed to handle these situations unless you are looking at ones that are fitted onto something like 991 GT3RS or some of the specialized track car.

 

[sreams]

There is no such thing as "high performance brake fluid".

Oh, yes there is. Brake temperatures are higher during track use, and OEM brake fluid can boil. I used to have this happen at the track until I switched from DOT3/4 fluid to Motul DOT5.1. And there are fluids with even higher boiling points than that. This could be the reason the Model 3 in this thread ended up with an empty reservoir.

Also, brake pads have very different properties depending on what kind of compound they consist of. Organic pads work well at low temperatures but can't handle high temperatures very well at all. The one time I ran organic pads at Laguna Seca, they went from 100% to 0% after about five 20 minutes sessions. Semi-metallic pads on the same car easily lasted the whole day, with about 80% still remaining.

 

[mattack4000]

Couldn't disagree with you more. No volume production cars are set up for hot laps at Laguna Seca.

Well, I can tell you the Leaf didn't lose the brakes, but that's because it never got up past 85mph after the battery heated up

 

[mattcrowley]

I see @mattcrowley that Jalopnik basically took your whole posting here for their article on your Laguna Seca run...

Jalopnik article here.

 

[DR61]

Jalopnik article here.

Nice driving there! I liked the way you worked your speed up in turn 6 as the session went on - my favorite turn at Laguna.

 

[Oyinko]

I can't believe you toasted your brakes after only few laps....

I've been at lagune seca 4 times with my BMW M235i and did about 80 laps with a best time of 1:52.

Even after 27'000 miles and 80 laps on a track, I'm still running the front stock brake pads and discs. According to the internal wear computer, the front pads have still 11'000 miles to go....

 

[mkspeedr]

M...235

I hate the bump in 6.

 

[mattack4000]

No offense, of course pads don’t wear out when you are running 52s.

 

[LCR1]

No such thing as performance brake fluid?!? Funniest thing I heard all day. Not sure where to even start with that. Take a family car or a bike to a track day and let me know how it all works out.

Oh, yes there is. Brake temperatures are higher during track use, and OEM brake fluid can boil. I used to have this happen at the track until I switched from DOT3/4 fluid to Motul DOT5.1. And there are fluids with even higher boiling points than that. This could be the reason the Model 3 in this thread ended up with an empty reservoir.

Also, brake pads have very different properties depending on what kind of compound they consist of. Organic pads work well at low temperatures but can't handle high temperatures very well at all. The one time I ran organic pads at Laguna Seca, they went from 100% to 0% after about five 20 minutes sessions. Semi-metallic pads on the same car easily lasted the whole day, with about 80% still remaining.

 

[DrDabbles]

Did I see a melted dust boot on the brake cylinders? I couldn't tell if it was paint bubbling, melted boot, or just dust caked in. Either way, I'm glad to see what the car can do. Thanks for sharing.

Get new OEM brake pads.

Jesus. This is truly terrible advice for anybody that plans to track their car, even once. I would never send anybody onto a track with OEM pads unless the OEM intended the vehicle be used on a track.

Then replace brake fluid with OEM fluid, do a test drive (10 minutes with some moderate braking) and then fill brake fluid to the max line (or let the workshop do that).

I feel like you think brake fluid is similar to coolant somehow. Are you suggesting that you don't have to bleed the brakes, and instead you can keep topping it up? Because that quite literally could not be more wrong. This is not how you service brakes, especially for a vehicle that has been on a track, experienced severe fade and wear, and now has an empty reservoir. You'd still be wrong even if it was just an empty reservoir, but you're super wrong for a tracked car.

There is no such thing as "high performance brake fluid". Get fresh standard quality fluid (sealed).

Oh man, somehow this keeps getting worse. There are different boiling points for different rated brake fluids. And, like any fluid, as brake fluid heats and goes through heat cycles, its viscosity changes. Since you very clearly don't understand what you're talking about, I'd suggest the Wikipedia page about brake fluid, and then continuing your reading at literally any track day thread on any automotive forum. Brake fluid - Wikipedia

Do the race again with regen Normal. If brake pads actually fail again, report here and contact Tesla. Because this is nonsense.

There is no auto manufacturer that will care if you call them and tell them that the consumable brake pads wore out on a racing track. That is the expectation. These pads are clearly formed to be quiet on the road, perform at normal street temperatures, and cause the minimal amount of squealing when cold. So, when you get them rocketing hot, they're going to do this. As someone else mentioned, they probably flaked apart more than wore out.

Model 3 is considered sporty. Especially with suspension settings in mind. Having mild brake pads doesn't make sense.
I'm imagining doing 100-130mph on autobahn and having many heavy braking events. Not that different. Much more dangerous.

Considering a car sporty is nothing at all like considering a car track prepped. And there is a major difference on highway driving versus tracks. On a track, you have maximum brake load nearly every time you apply them, and you apply them regularly. On a highway, you're coasting and dragging the brakes more than you're applying heavy braking forces. If you find yourself driving on the street the way someone would on a track, knock it off.

@mattcrowley
Question, didn't you get this symbol on the dash?

Or this:

If not, it appears to be safety issue. Brake reservoir MUST have level sensor and it must trigger immediately!

There isn't a dash. As far as the screen, we can't read the messages, so we don't know.

Brake rotor and pad temperature can have virtual temperature sensor.

...what?

If they fail again, I'd recommend Tesla to fix the problem in one or another way, otherwise it might end with factory recall.

There's no recall necessary for abusive use. Go take a Geo Metro onto a track and tell GM you want the pads replaced because they wore out. They're going to laugh you out of the room.

Brakes can't fail without warning.

They might if you abuse them. And the manufacturer doesn't have to cover it, because you abused them. Race tracks are not considered normal use, and so anything that happens on a race track isn't covered under warranty, and most manufacturers won't cover it under a maintenance plan either. It really sounds like you've never been on a track, so I'll also point out that your auto insurance may not cover any claims either. Because you're on a race track, and they don't consider that normal driving.

There is an appropriate brake system for appropriate drivetrain.

Example. BMW. Same chassis, same model. Engine with 135kW power vs same engine with 142kW power (different software). One car accepts 15" wheels but the second one does not. Requires 16". Why? More power to accelerate, more power to brake. Bigger rotors, larger brake pad.

Yes, if you buy the performance version of a Tesla, it will also have different brakes and likely different wheels to accommodate those rotors. But this isn't really a point worth making, since if you're going to drive your car on a race track, you should know what you're getting yourself into. I tracked my car once, and changed the pads right after. And those were performance pads. But since they wore fast and got crazy hot after beating on them, I no longer trusted them on the street. So I changed them. Even with track specific pads, you're only looking at a couple visits before you need to replace the pads. That BMW in your example would also smoke through its pads in a day and need them to be replaced.

How brake pads fail:
Either binder in the friction material fails (brake pad will erode rapidly), binder will sweat (acts as lubricator, weak braking while pedal hard), or binder between friction pad and base fails. Ends with a bang and brake failure, at least for a moment.

So you do seem to know something, but you're not applying it to this case. Different binders (and lack of binders) react differently at different temperatures. So, a minivan driven by a mom to bring the kids back and forth to school will optimize for low cost, and initial bite when cold. If the pads heat up significantly, they can offgas causing a strange pedal feel, and they will erode quickly. But since the vehicle rarely travels faster than 70MPH, this won't happen. If you took that vehicle onto a track, the pads would be gone in a matter of laps. It's not what they're designed for.

Brake pad manufacturer sets maximum brake pad temperature limit car should obey.

And now you see what happens when those parameters are exceeded. Welcome to the club.

Rotors can overheat, but usually pads.

Why are you explaining this to the guy that says he has a track prepped Porsche. He knows. Everybody else here seems to know.

Overheated rotors will change color to purple.

If your rotors are turning blue (it's blue, not purple), then you're getting them up around the point where DOT3 and even DOT4 would start to have trouble keeping up with the heat. This has nothing to do with pad wear. It has everything to do with rotor cooling vanes and continued brake application. And as you notice, those rotors weren't blue.

Can get warped. It is recommended to have brake pads mild enough not to damage the brake discs.

The rotors weren't damaged. What are you talking about? Did you just copy a brake forum post from a Honda tuning site, and think it applied here or something?

Brake fluid problem was weird. Usually, if filled to MAX, it should not run to zero, even when all 8 pads are worn down to base plate.

If all of the pistons are out, this is exactly what you'd expect. Especially if some of that fluid vaporized.

 

[mattcrowley]

Jalopnik article here.

Sorry, but this quote from the Jalopnik article made me laugh...and I had to see what a shirt would look like if I made it.

 

[OppositeLock]

Nice laps, Matt! I'm impressed with how you wrestled that heavy car around so quickly. Boy oh boy did I smell some serious brake while driving behind you, and seeing your car auto-brake for me was kind of amusing.

 

[SMAlset]

Glad you found humor in it. I was like these guys essentially ripped your post here off for their own audience grab and then in the same article felt the need to make that statement. Didn't know if you had seen their article or not. It comes up in my auto news on Apple News and of course I immediately recognized it having seen it here first!

Like the T-shirt! Perfect typeface too.

Hey, how about this for a T-Shirt...maybe reverse side..."Jalopnik does not appear to be a pro-journalistic site per se"

 

[Doug_G]

Umm, did you watch the posts and / or video? The OP ran 9 laps with no reported overheating, and only have to slow down because the brakes wore out by lap 4. He did run it with low regen but it remains to be seen the impact on regular regen on the track.

Model 3 Track Day: Laguna Seca

Then it is very different from Roadster and Model S. I've tracked both the Roadster and the S (including an S at Laguna Seca) and the power limits hit very early.

I would assume that the reason for the Model 3 lasting longer on the track is the permanent magnet motor. It's quite difficult to cool the rotor in the induction motors of the Roadster and S. The stator is less difficult because it's stationary and on the outside of the motor. The Model 3 eliminates that problem by using rare earth magnets on the rotor. So I guess it makes sense that the 3 might be better suited for the track.

In that case, hopefully Tesla will use permanent magnet motors in the new Roadster.

The reason I recommend low regen is that you don't want to be unnecessarily heating the drive train. Plus the regen tends to mess with the balance of the car when turning in.

 

[mattcrowley]

Nice laps, Matt! I'm impressed with how you wrestled that heavy car around so quickly. Boy oh boy did I smell some serious brake while driving behind you, and seeing your car auto-brake for me was kind of amusing.

Thanks!

Obviously you know how bad the track conditions were yesterday. At least three cars destroyed into the walls. The turn 3 with a river running through it. It was not a day to push it...especially on the first session of the day at 40°F and a car not run before. Silly fun though!

At least I didn't blow sound. Two friends of mine blew sound three times each and were asked to leave just after lunch. Blowing sound was all too common yesterday.

 

[SMAlset]

Then it is very different from Roadster and Model S. I've tracked both the Roadster and the S (including an S at Laguna Seca) and the power limits hit very early.

I would assume that the reason for the Model 3 lasting longer on the track is the permanent magnet motor. It's quite difficult to cool the rotor in the induction motors of the Roadster and S. The stator is less difficult because it's stationary and on the outside of the motor. The Model 3 eliminates that problem by using rare earth magnets on the rotor. So I guess it makes sense that the 3 might be better suited for the track.

In that case, hopefully Tesla will use permanent magnet motors in the new Roadster.

The reason I recommend low regen is that you don't want to be unnecessarily heating the drive train. Plus the regen tends to mess with the balance of the car when turning in.

Since they were able to give launches all night long at the new Roadster reveal at Hawthorne, I thought that was the assumption. In fact at the Jaguar I-Pace announcement weren't they making some noise about how their car wouldn't die like the Model S and X? I assume that was due to PM motors. Will be interesting to see what updates to the Model S and X get made this time around.