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Model 3 Wh/km

Lon12

Member
Oct 12, 2015
837
1,038
Calgary, AB, Canada
I did a long road trip the other day so charged to 100%. The first time I opened the door it showed 495 km. An hour later it showed 497 and then half an hour later when I left it showed 498. At the first hotel in the morning it had reached 499 for the 100% charge. So it looks like I have the rated capacity and a base line for a new vehicle. Already have 3,000 km on it.
 

pcons

M3 AWD+
Jul 5, 2018
1,627
1,668
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Charge complete at 449, drains to 430ish by the time I wake up and drive. If you want to get an accurate state of the battery. Do an low SoC charge to 95% setting and it'll balance out the cells. Do this every few months or when you notice the charged km not meeting the % setting.

Also, many experienced Tesla owners recommend setting the scheduled charge time to top the car off right before you wake up in the morning. So for example. I drive daily for 120kms and my charger fluctuates between 39km/h to 49km/h depending on the ambient temperature. Take worse case scenario it's cold and it's charging at 39km/h.

If I want 70% (350km) for the day and I have 50% (250km) from when I got home last night, I'd want to set the setting to 80% and set the start charge timer ~2hr 30 to 3h before I wake up to leave at 6AM = Scheduled charge time start of 3AM ish. If it's not as cold as I thought, it'll keep charging to 80% and I'll start the day with 350+km.

It takes a bit of getting used to but if you have 40A (32A to plug) service available, it's ~50km/h.
+1 to this, also helps your efficiency to drive on a warm battery and allows you to use more of the regen capability (I tested this today and had full regen available, where before I had the dots on screen if I finished charging at 9pm and the car sat in the garage the rest of the time)....but this does bring up another thing I'm surprised isn't in the Model 3: departure based charging. On both my volts and wife's bolt, you can tell the car what time you want to leave at and it will figure out on its own what time to start the charge at.

This is much more convenient because one day if you come home and make a quick trip out and consume more than your 'typical' charge, you have to remember to change your charge start time.

I keep meaning to make a list of plus/minus vs the bolt (and volt) just for fun discussion...the EV world isn't centred on Tesla, and while they are ahead of the game on 95% of the others, there are some things I'm scratching my head about that I would implement if I were a designer on their engineering team, but that's a conversation for a different thread :)
 

5_+JqckQttqck

Active Member
Apr 27, 2018
1,851
1,336
Toronto
+1 to this, also helps your efficiency to drive on a warm battery and allows you to use more of the regen capability (I tested this today and had full regen available, where before I had the dots on screen if I finished charging at 9pm and the car sat in the garage the rest of the time)....but this does bring up another thing I'm surprised isn't in the Model 3: departure based charging. On both my volts and wife's bolt, you can tell the car what time you want to leave at and it will figure out on its own what time to start the charge at.

This is much more convenient because one day if you come home and make a quick trip out and consume more than your 'typical' charge, you have to remember to change your charge start time.

I keep meaning to make a list of plus/minus vs the bolt (and volt) just for fun discussion...the EV world isn't centred on Tesla, and while they are ahead of the game on 95% of the others, there are some things I'm scratching my head about that I would implement if I were a designer on their engineering team, but that's a conversation for a different thread :)

I wish they'd put an "user UI feedback" button somewhere. Each user gets three posts a month and click on drop downs to categorize the request to help the developers collect the most pressing UX development issues are.
 

rdturner0

Member
Apr 29, 2018
225
147
Ottawa, Canada
Also, many experienced Tesla owners recommend setting the scheduled charge time to top the car off right before you wake up in the morning.
Interesting suggestion -- it would be nice if the car had much better charge control (like specifying cheap hours, and when you want it fully charged, and it figures out the rest...). I certainly could tweak my charge time so that it finishes before I typically need it -- most days, the charge time is very similar as our routine is pretty similar.
 

rdturner0

Member
Apr 29, 2018
225
147
Ottawa, Canada
I wish they'd put an "user UI feedback" button somewhere. Each user gets three posts a month and click on drop downs to categorize the request to help the developers collect the most pressing UX development issues are.
Indeed -- or some way to provide written feedback (as opposed to the "bug report" voice command). I'd also like support/service tickets shown on the portal too...and a way to create them -- would save hours of waiting on the phone to largely be told "I can't help you, I will have to have a technician follow up".
 

Blu-Ion

Member
Jun 1, 2018
214
178
Ottawa Ontario
Personally I think the range is completely off, why even have it?
Here is a picture of my car, charged at 448km, the whr is not that bad considering the temperature but its the phantom losses that are astounding.
I don't do cabin preheat, or wait for car ro warm up before driving. I'm losing close to 50% and it's only 0c-5c temperature . I can't imagine - 25!
 

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pcons

M3 AWD+
Jul 5, 2018
1,627
1,668
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Personally I think the range is completely off, why even have it?
Here is a picture of my car, charged at 448km, the whr is not that bad considering the temperature but its the phantom losses that are astounding.
I don't do cabin preheat, or wait for car ro warm up before driving. I'm losing close to 50% and it's only 0c-5c temperature . I can't imagine - 25!
That's not bad actually....you used 19 kwh to go 99 km, and the total battery is 75 kwh, but you charged to 90%...so that's 67.5 kwh that was in the battery... so projecting that out for the full battery that's 67.5/19 x 99km = 350 km for a 90% charge...hardly 50%. Especially if you have the heater running while driving.

The car is estimating 380 km total, so if you ran it down to zero you would be somewhere in between the two estimates, probably in the middle. So 365/449 = 81.3%. Only a 18.7% range loss...in my opinion that's totally normal for 0-5C and while using cabin heat.

This time of year is always inaccurate for the guess-o-meter. The car will adapt and be better at predicting in a few weeks.
 
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5_+JqckQttqck

Active Member
Apr 27, 2018
1,851
1,336
Toronto
I think the timed charging to have a warm battery in the morning / start of drive will be critical to winter efficiency (if that even exists).

Time to write up a memo to the GM to install Tesla chargers at work (maybe a little late XD).

This last week's dip in temperature is evident with the amount of battery use for non-driving devices in the car.

upload_2018-10-26_9-34-44.png
 
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Blu-Ion

Member
Jun 1, 2018
214
178
Ottawa Ontario
That's not bad actually....you used 19 kwh to go 99 km, and the total battery is 75 kwh, but you charged to 90%...so that's 67.5 kwh that was in the battery... so projecting that out for the full battery that's 67.5/19 x 99km = 350 km for a 90% charge...hardly 50%. Especially if you have the heater running while driving.

The car is estimating 380 km total, so if you ran it down to zero you would be somewhere in between the two estimates, probably in the middle. So 365/449 = 81.3%. Only a 18.7% range loss...in my opinion that's totally normal for 0-5C and while using cabin heat.

This time of year is always inaccurate for the guess-o-meter. The car will adapt and be better at predicting in a few weeks.
I calculate I used 25.5kw of power, not 19 (280km to 448km delta or 42kw to 67.5) 6.5kw is unaccounted for. The wh calculator in the car is not reliable, it does account for huge phantom losses.
It would be like havi g a gas car and losing 10litres of fuel in a day without any explanation
 

pcons

M3 AWD+
Jul 5, 2018
1,627
1,668
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I calculate I used 25.5kw of power, not 19 (280km to 448km delta or 42kw to 67.5) 6.5kw is unaccounted for. The wh calculator in the car is not reliable, it does account for huge phantom losses.
It would be like havi g a gas car and losing 10litres of fuel in a day without any explanation
You can't calculate things like that. True the car isn't perfectly accurate about energy used, but it's not off by that much. Reverse engineering your calculation it seems like you did this:

448 km - 280 km = 168 km of range used

You then multiplied by 150 wh/km to get:

168 km x .15 kWh/km = 25.2 kwh.

The error in the above is that your car efficiency was 150wh/km, which it certainly isn't I'm volt temperature.

Phantom losses are a thing, butbthey arent to the level you are talking about. Interestingly enough though, on my GM EVs, I never had any issue with phantom lossess....we barely plug in my wife's bolt since she is on mat leave and only drives 20-30km/day.... and never lose range.....but that's a topic for a different day ...also on my volt I have parked multiple times at the airport with 16-20km range and when I returned in a week, still had the same range.

The Phantom losses were a shock to me with the model 3, but it seems like an accepted thing with Tesla's. Even turning off climate control, etc and I'll still lose about 3km of range overnight. As I said, never experienced that in my 2014 or 2017 volt, or the 2017 bolt...

But the range/efficiency loss in the winter on both volts and the bolt are bang on in line with what you reported for your model 3 (and also what my 3 is currently experiencing)...it's just physics :)
 

Blu-Ion

Member
Jun 1, 2018
214
178
Ottawa Ontario
I think you got the calculation I used correct:
"448 km - 280 km = 168 km of range used

You then multiplied by 150 wh/km to get:

168 km x .15 kWh/km = 25.2 kwh."

The rated range is always based on 150wh/km, that does not fluctuate. Using this, you can measure the amount of energy in the battery at any given time, using assumption of 75kw at 100%, 67.5kw at 90% (my full charging status), and 42kw at 56% or 280 km of rated range. To go from 42kw back to 67.5, that's 25.5kw of energy. There is probably a little variation in those numbers since I don't know how many kw are left at 0km, but that's another topic

The car "claims" to have consumed 19kw, so my question is, what happened to the other 6.5kw of power?
 

pcons

M3 AWD+
Jul 5, 2018
1,627
1,668
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I think you got the calculation I used correct:
"448 km - 280 km = 168 km of range used

You then multiplied by 150 wh/km to get:

168 km x .15 kWh/km = 25.2 kwh."

The rated range is always based on 150wh/km, that does not fluctuate. Using this, you can measure the amount of energy in the battery at any given time, using assumption of 75kw at 100%, 67.5kw at 90% (my full charging status), and 42kw at 56% or 280 km of rated range. To go from 42kw back to 67.5, that's 25.5kw of energy. There is probably a little variation in those numbers since I don't know how many kw are left at 0km, but that's another topic

The car "claims" to have consumed 19kw, so my question is, what happened to the other 6.5kw of power?
The error in your calculation is assuming that the efficiency remains constant at 150 wh/km and does not fluctuate. Any car, even an ICE will have different efficiency depending on driving style, speed, etc. This is just an average, and depends on many factors such as how fast you drive, the outside ambient temp/weather conditions, elevation changes, if you are using heat/AC.

Around this time of year you should be getting around 180-200 wh/km, so travelling 99km you would consume between 17.8 - 19.8 kWh, which is exactly what you consumed.

In your centre console you can track what your consumption is via the trip meter (also v9 includes an energy display which has more info on it, but the simple trip meter is also good enough). For example, here's a shot from my car last week when I went to the gym in the morning, which is a short drive, but also slightly uphill from my house and since the temps are a bit cool the efficiency was off of my average of around 155 wh/km:

upload_2018-10-29_10-54-23.png


If I used the whole battery at this rate, I would get 360km to a full charge.

But a few days before I did a drive which was on average downhill (maybe a few hundred feet elevation drop), and my efficiency was 2x better:

upload_2018-10-29_10-55-22.png


If I used the whole battery at this rate I would get 757km to a full charge....but since this trip was downhill sooner or later I would have to go up a hill and the efficiency would average out.

The efficiency is really just a physics calculation...you have a certain amount of mass, and it takes energy to move it. The faster you move it (highway vs city driving), or if you are moving with or against gravity (uphill/downhill), or into/with the wind all affect the final number. Regardless of Tesla, Volt, Bolt, Leaf, Hummer H2...all have the same physical limitations.

If you take any gas car an 'punch it' at every light vs trying to hypermile you will see a 2x difference there as well.

Hopefully this helps clear things up...just wait until it gets really cold, you'll probably be around 220 wh/km or worse depending on how much you heat the car :)
 

Blu-Ion

Member
Jun 1, 2018
214
178
Ottawa Ontario
There is one error: the "rated range" is always based on 150wh/km, actual range can be influenced by environmental factors or driving behaviour.
the Energy app in V9 clearly shows this. .. but that's not the argument anyway, still trying to find out where 6.5kw of power went? Car claims I used 19kw or 193wh/km avg, but the battery degradation was equivalent to 25.5kw.

It is the same as saying that an ICE car fuel consumption computer claims to use 19litres since last fill up but you put in 25.5litres of gas, wouldn't you question the car's computer?
 

pcons

M3 AWD+
Jul 5, 2018
1,627
1,668
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
There is one error: the "rated range" is always based on 150wh/km, actual range can be influenced by environmental factors or driving behaviour.
the Energy app in V9 clearly shows this. .. but that's not the argument anyway, still trying to find out where 6.5kw of power went? Car claims I used 19kw or 193wh/km avg, but the battery degradation was equivalent to 25.5kw.

It is the same as saying that an ICE car fuel consumption computer claims to use 19litres since last fill up but you put in 25.5litres of gas, wouldn't you question the car's computer?

I think the more appropriate analogy is "when you filled up your car it reported 650 km of range on the tank, but now after driving 100 km it reports you only have 400 km left."....the reason for the above is that the car used the fuel less efficiently than its initial estimate, and that is correct. It's not that the car used 25 L, yet reported it used only 19 L.

The best answer I think I can give is basically when the car is 'fully' charged to 90% it reports 450 km range (assuming 150 wh/km), but then after driving it has re calculated the remaining range based off of the 193 wh/km and reporting according to that. Maybe it always reports 150 wh/km at the 'start' of a fresh charge. I haven't had my model 3 long enough to comment on that, but I can say all the GM EVs that I have owned/do own reduce the estimate of the 'full charge' based off of most recent efficiency. Ie, my wife's car charged to 100% reports ~ 330 km of available range at the start of a charge right now. In the summer, it reported it as ~410km. But if we fully discharge the battery, it will still report 60 kwh used (but we obviously dont fully discharge...)

Maybe another way to test this is to switch your display to the % battery from the estimated mileage. If the car truely consumed 25.5 kwh that display would show the battery going from 90% to 56%. If it only consumed 19 kWh, then it would have gone from 90% to 65%. My money is that it will say 65% and the 'lost' 6kwh is not really lost because the car re calculates the real range based off of real efficiency as you drive.

Failing that, the other test you can do is run the battery down to 5% charge (3.75 kwh useable remaining) and see if the reported number for consumption ends up being close to 67.5 kwh - 3.75 kwh = 63.75 kwh. If you do that and the car reports much less than 64 kwh, then I agree there is a phantom drain problem.

From my experience with EVs this wont be the case, but I have been wrong once or twice before.....but I made sure there were no witnesses left to prove it ;)
 
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