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Model S and coasting, increasing the comfort for passengers

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Given that it's illegal in most places, I doubt you'll see one.

I wonder where these "most places" are actually located. I also wonder what people in those "most places" areas think about not being able to drive stick shift cars, where going into neutral and using the clutch, is unavoidable.

Can someone please explain to me what the danger is of being in neutral - which on the Tesla Model S is even only a virtual neutral - the engine is never disengaged from the drive train?

Having driven mainly stick shift, this is a quite natural part of driving. Steering and braking are still engaged, and you can select a gear any time you want it.

"Always keep both hands on the wheel" seemed to be a safety mantra for decades "in most places". Just very hard when you want to flick a switch, change gears or any other action. Is this a similar mantra, "never use coasting"?

As I wrote before, I am not here to change the fiddle-the-pedal team, keep doing your fiddling, I will either fiddle or neutral as I see best.

Here is another example from yesterday. Speed limit is 80 km/hr, and further ahead is 50 km/h (these are about 50 mph and 35 mph). No-one else was around me, I switched to N and coasted gently down to 50 km/h, pressed the accelerator slightly and then re-engaged D. More comfortable, less energy spent for those who care - and I felt perfectly safe, thank you.
 
On the range limited Leaf I hate it when the regen kicks in and slows the vehicle down, when i don't want the vehicle to slow down.

When I want to slow down, I will press the brakes to slow down. Let it regen all it want at that time.
 
I wonder where these "most places" are actually located. I also wonder what people in those "most places" areas think about not being able to drive stick shift cars, where going into neutral and using the clutch, is unavoidable.

I'm in Virginia and the law says:

§ 46.2-811. Coasting prohibited.
The driver of any motor vehicle traveling on a downgrade on any highway shall not coast with the gears of the vehicle in neutral.
(Code 1950, § 46-218; 1958, c. 541, § 46.1-200; 1989, c. 727.)

Also, when driving a stick, you are normally only in neutral when stopped. Having the clutch in is not in neutral because the gears are engaged and simply lifting your foot reconnects everything.
 
I'm in Virginia and the law says:

[NO ONE CARES!!!] .

Folks, the law that applies to ICEs with transmissions is really uninteresting to those who care more about how to get the most efficiency and comfort from their car. No cop is going to know or care whether the inverter is in power or regen mode, or in between.

Pruis and other hypermiling hybrid users learned a long time ago that coasting in neutral is the most efficient way to conserve and preserve energy. They were able to do so with a simple joy stick tap. Tesla ought to make that easy to do as well.
 
[NO ONE CARES!!!] .

Folks, the law that applies to ICEs with transmissions is really uninteresting to those who care more about how to get the most efficiency and comfort from their car. No cop is going to know or care whether the inverter is in power or regen mode, or in between.

Pruis and other hypermiling hybrid users learned a long time ago that coasting in neutral is the most efficient way to conserve and preserve energy. They were able to do so with a simple joy stick tap. Tesla ought to make that easy to do as well.

What a silly reply.

The shift lever that is used to shift to neutral in the Tesla is the same shift lever that is used in an ICE Mercedes. The thing that is cited has nothing to do with the mechanics of the connection but, as has been stated, the fact that you have need to take some action to get the car back into a mode in which the accelerator will function.

I suspect the number of people who actually think this has some value is such a tiny percent of the Tesla population that it's not going to be on their radar screen. I wish someone had some factual information on how much this would save. I'm afraid your comment that 'no one cares' probably applies more to coasting.
 
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To me it's not as much about saving but also comfort.

I I just did another 500 miles on the German autobahn, and what a great car!

Since I still don't see what the danger is, I used N often when I see traffic up ahead, slower than me. In this situation I have no rush to slow down, so I let it coast until I reach the desired speed, then re-engage cruise control and drive almost simultaneously, with a finger from each hand. It's so smooth and seamless, no problem at all. And the most comfortable and safe way, rather than bleeding speed off with regen, I can focus 100% on the road, while giving minimum discomfort to myself and passengers.
 
What a silly reply.

. . . I suspect the number of people who actually think this has some value is such a tiny percent of the Tesla population that it's not going to be on there radar screen. I wish someone had some factual information on how much this would save. I'm afraid your comment that 'no one cares' probably applies more to coasting.

People who know, or who can instinctively understand that braking from aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance is inherently more efficient than braking from regen or brake pads will care. Those who ask for evidence of the point could be referred to their high school physics book.

All hypermilers of hybrids do this for instance. It's hypermiling 101. Literally: Hypermiling Techniques 101: Coasting | Hypermiling | Fuel saving Tips | Industry News | Forum

People who don't understand of course won't care. But those people probably aren't the type to be interested in tesla. Or at least they wouldn't be attracted to a thread called "Model S and coasting." So let those who have the benefit of that understanding share their tips and tricks and suggestions here in this thread, with the smug knowledge that the ignorant would never bother to read or certainly not post to this thread -- which of course is to share helpful informative suggestions.
 
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I wish someone had some factual information on how much this would save.

Let me google that for you

For those interested - regen vs. coasting - I measured it! | Forums | Tesla Motors

Dropbox - Tesla coasting research.xlsx


While this guys analysis is interesting, there are some clues that he was well beyond his expertise on this. His hypothesis for instance was faulty. But the last message in that thread gives a nice intuition pump hypothetical to help people understand:

"Imagine you are traveling on a completely flat road and your battery suddenly runs completely dry, and you see a SC station way off in the distance. What would you do to try to reach that station? Would you quickly put the car in neutral and attempt to coast to the SC, or leave it in drive, thereby charging the battery, and then use that extra bit of regen charge to drive some more? (and yes, the latter could likely be done repeatedly several times, with decreasing returns each time). I think it's intuitively obvious here that coasting would be your best bet."
 
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Let me google that for you

For those interested - regen vs. coasting - I measured it! | Forums | Tesla Motors

Dropbox - Tesla coasting research.xlsx


While this guys analysis is interesting, there are some clues that he was well beyond his expertise on this. His hypothesis for instance was faulty. But the last message in that thread gives a nice intuition pump hypothetical to help people understand:

"Imagine you are traveling on a completely flat road and your battery suddenly runs completely dry, and you see a SC station way off in the distance. What would you do to try to reach that station? Would you quickly put the car in neutral and attempt to coast to the SC, or leave it in drive, thereby charging the battery, and then use that extra bit of regen charge to drive some more? (and yes, the latter could likely be done repeatedly several times, with decreasing returns each time). I think it's intuitively obvious here that coasting would be your best bet."

bhzmark

Of course it's obvious that coasting would be the best bet in the example given.

I just have a hard time understanding that, in real world driving, the difference between coasting and controlling the accelerator to minimize power would amount to a significant amount of energy saving for coasting. I'd suspect that overall driving technique in an EV provides the most benefit (i.e. minimize speed changes and braking).
 
I use to have a Solectria Force that had a switch to turn regen braking off. I used that switch while driving on the interstate highways only because it allowed me to pull my foot off the accelerator every so often. The biggest problem I had with the switch was that on several occassions, during the years that I had the car, I forgot the regen was turned off and when I got off on the exit ramp I had to use the mechanical brakes to slow the car instead of regen. My fear was that in certain situations the delay in my realizing that the regen was not on and then reacting by pressing the mechanical brake might cause an accident. As far as efficiency gains by turning regen off, I believe it was virtually nothing when compared to my simply leaving regen on and then modulating the accelerator pedal so that I was not using regen while driving, but the comfort factor of not having to leave my foot on the pedal was great while on the highway. Please note that I am a driver that does care about my efficiency while driving so when driving my Model S I do carefully modulate the accelerator pedal to coast as much as possible. I would love it if Tesla could come up with a way to make coasting easier, but it needs to be safer than just allowing us to shut regen off on the fly. Maybe in conjunction with the new autopilot features it could be handled safely.
 
I'll restate my view a little more simply:

Most of us know how to keep our foot on the accelerator pedal to hold a reasonably constant speed on level ground without the cruise control. To coast to a stop, all you have to do, is move your foot to a slightly different position (lighten up a little) that is reasonably close to zero power. No switches, no levers, just change the position of your foot slightly to coast.
 
This thread looks exactly like the ones I've read on many hybrid and EV forums.

You our will always have people chime in with laws and reasons why what you are doing is illegal and/or stupid. This thread is not for them although that doesn't stop them from posting their opinion.

Using kinetic energy is always the best use of energy. Period. How you choose to best access and conserve that energy is up to you.

I only caution against using the ICE and hybrid hypermiling comparisons because with those cars you are cutting energy use by a very large margin because once you start coasting, or gliding in the case of the Prius, you are shutting down the ICE which is horribly inefficient. In an EV there is no engine to shut down and if you feather the throttle you can get to a near zero energy use state. Now the biggest question is how does your vehicle treat this feathered throttle state with regards to regen vs. neutral? In a Prius there is no benefit to going into neutral except ease of use for drivers who can't find the sweet spot easily. It doesn't change regen at all. If the Telsa can coast longer in neutral than using the feathered throttle technique then neutral is more efficient assuming you switch back to drive before coming to a stop so you can gather energy using regen. This is especially important because even though you are not using energy for driving while in neutral, you are surely using energy for accessories and that must be replenished before you come to a final stop or else you risk being less efficient overall. It's a debt that has to be paid eventually. :)
 
if you feather the throttle you can get to a near zero energy use state.

the difference between coasting and controlling the accelerator to minimize power would amount to a significant amount of energy saving for coasting..

Most of us know how to keep our foot on the accelerator pedal to hold a reasonably constant speed on level ground without the cruise control. To coast to a stop, all you have to do, is move your foot to a slightly different position (lighten up a little) that is reasonably close to zero power. No switches, no levers, just change the position of your foot slightly to coast.

Feathering the throttle to find the effective neutral, should be, when done perfectly, the same as putting in neutral. I agree.

But the whole point is: feathering the throttle is imperfect and fatiguing. Why do something imprecisely and annoyingly when it should be able to be done with a simply flick of a gear lever or joy stick or something.

For instance, why have cruise control or autopilot? To relieve the driver of the burden of doing annoying tasks that can be better done in some automated way. Coasting is one more thing that can either be done very simply, or with lots of driver effort and resultant imprecision.
 
@bhzmark

I'm curious (and not trying to rile things up), but are you talking about this having attempted to do this on a MS, or is this a theoretical discussion?

Your concern that "feathering the throttle is imperfect and fatiguing" might be true if you were trying to be perfect. If you just got 'in the neighborhood' so it was imperfect but not fatiguing, would there really be huge difference in performance? This idea of reworking the hardware would only make sense if there was enough real savings to justify it (although anything that switches the car into neutral and would require switching it back seems questionable).
 
@bhzmark

I'm curious (and not trying to rile things up), but are you talking about this having attempted to do this on a MS, or is this a theoretical discussion?

Your concern that "feathering the throttle is imperfect and fatiguing" might be true if you were trying to be perfect. If you just got 'in the neighborhood' so it was imperfect but not fatiguing, would there really be huge difference in performance? This idea of reworking the hardware would only make sense if there was enough real savings to justify it (although anything that switches the car into neutral and would require switching it back seems questionable).

If my goal is to stretch out my range to make it to the next charger or home, I don't want to be imperfect. I want to easily get the maximum range. Which means I want maximum efficiency. Especially the same efficiency that I had for instance, in a 2004 Prius that was easy to switch in to neutral to coast for maximum range and efficiency. There shouldn't be any dramatic "reworking of hardware." Just give us an easy way to engage coast mode.
 
I'm not arguing with you. :)

Question. Does the Model S have a speed limit at which the car should not pass while in neutral? For example, the Prius can be put in neutral at any speed BUT it must not be put in neutral below 42mph then allowed to accelerate above 42mph or damage may occur. The HSD system is completely different than the Model S drivetrain but it's something to think about?
 
For instance, why have cruise control or autopilot? To relieve the driver of the burden of doing annoying tasks that can be better done in some automated way. Coasting is one more thing that can either be done very simply, or with lots of driver effort and resultant imprecision.

Using cruise control increases power usage, so if you use that, why bother with neutral?