Model S Dashboard and console controls

[Doug_G]

You'd think that it would be possible to know when the defrost mode would be needed, run it until the windshield is clear, then go back to cabin comfort. The computer could monitor inside and outside temperature, it is probably already doing this to maintain the battery.

Yes, that is absolutely possible. But I've never seen a car where it's been done properly (IMHO). You don't even need a windshield sensor of any kind; simply knowing the indoor/outdoor temperatures should be enough to come up with an effective profile (although humidity sensors could make it optimal).

The last two (non-Tesla) cars I've owned had fully automatic HVAC systems, but I still end up constantly tinkering with it. In the summer I have to dial the interior temperature control up to 24C or I freeze. In winter I have to dial it back to 20C or I cook. In the spring and fall, when the temperature varies all over the place, I'm constantly fiddling back and forth between these two settings. Why is there a 4C different in heating and cooling set points? Some hysteresis obviously makes sense but that is ridiculous.

Hitting the defrost button causes a full-blast gale on the windshield even if the engine is cold, which is dangerous (flash-freeze risk).

In my G37 they've thoughtfully designed the Auto mode to dial up the fan when the engine warms up. But you can't use the feature all winter because you have to manually set and adjust the defrost settings. Once it's warmed up you could hit the Auto button, but it redirects all the heat to your feet and the windshield fogs up again. They've made an attempt to make it automatic, but it's a fail. Clearly the people who designed this system have never driven in winter conditions.

Unfortunately, Tesla is located in California, so the engineers won't have personal experience in dealing with winter weather. Hopefully at least some of the people working on HVAC used to live in Detroit... but considering what I've seen of other American cars that's no guarantee. On the bright side, since everything is done through firmware, if they don't get it right maybe customer feedback will be effective.

Here's how I think it should work for our typically wet and cold winter conditions (assuming the car isn't pre-warmed):

1. On power-up put a light breeze on the windshield, to prevent the occupants' breath from fogging over the windshield.
2. Automatically turn on the rear windshield defogger (it has one, right???)
3. As soon as the heater warms up (even with an electric heater this takes a little time at -20C) put maximum air flow on the windshield. This will heat the windshield to remove external and internal frost.
4. If it's only moderately cold (near freezing), turn on the air conditioner (keeping heat on) to help dry the air. (Also always run A/C if recirculate is active.)
5. After 10-15 minutes (or when cabin reaches certain temperature) lower the air flow a bit and redirect it 50% feet 50% windshield.
6. After cabin stabilizes possibly put more air on feet, but never stop heating the windshield.

This would cover 95% of winter month conditions. There would be extreme days when you'd have to override it (e.g. ice storm) but that's expected.

Now if the car can preheat the cabin automatically, that will improve things a lot. But under very cold conditions there still needs to be some warm air on the windshield at all times.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Even if Tesla doesn't do any of this out the door, if they publish their SDK API for managing climate control, all this could be done either as part of a downloaded app for the touchscreen or atleast as a separate smartphone app?!

 

[Robert.Boston]

We can hope, gg, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that apps are only allowed to interact with a few car systems, and HVAC might not be one of them.

 

[brianman]

@Doug_G - Pretty it up if you'd like (but I don't think it's needed) and forward that proposal along to Tesla. I'd be curious to see their response.

 

[Mycroft]

You'd think that if they could have sensors for raindrops, they'd be able to come up with a sensor for a fogged windshield.

 

[Todd Burch]

You'd think that if they could have sensors for raindrops, they'd be able to come up with a sensor for a fogged windshield.

Here's a simple process that might work:

Put a small optical translucency/focus sensor at the top of the windshield. When the car is put into park, have the sensor do a quick check every half hour for light transmittance and the focus of the transmitted light through the windshield. If it detects that the opacity or focus of the windshield has increased above some threshold while parked, and the temperature is near or below freezing, apply a defrost cycle.

Nice thing about doing it this way is:
-Avoids the need to integrate humidity/temp sensors and perform complex calculations which might not always be accurate in detecting frost (trust me--I used to be a meteorologist . For instance, wind can affect whether (and how) frost develops as well.
-A windshield getting dirty from road grime wouldn't set off the sensor, because it's only searching for focus changes and light transmittance deltas while parked.
-Because of the temperature check (near or below freezing), most rainfalls shouldn't set off the defrost cycle.
-Freezing rain or clear frost might not affect light transmittance much, but would affect focus--and therefore trigger the defrost cycle.

Actually, anyone want to get a patent with me?

 

[Todd Burch]

Automatic vehicle frost detection system:
http://www.patentstorm.us/applications/20070056947/description.html

 

[stephenpace]

Even if Tesla doesn't do any of this out the door, if they publish their SDK API for managing climate control, all this could be done either as part of a downloaded app for the touchscreen or atleast as a separate smartphone app?!

Robert, true we won't know for a while, but I can think of a lot of reasons why you'd want HVAC included in the SDK, and certainly the current beta iPhone application can monitor (and change!) the temp in the current cars. I watched George B adjust the controls at the Houston store opening while people were sitting inside looking at it.

 

[neroden]

I am making some assumptions about the Model S:

- The windshield wiper control will be on the steering column.
- The steering column buttons will let me adjust the volume (or mute), or answer the phone.

I wish the following were true, but may not be:

- I'd like a separate hard control for the headlights. This shouldn't be hard, since they are commonly on the turn signal switch in many cars, along with the brights.
- I don't know if there will be fog lights, but those controls ought to be operable without looking as well.
- I'd like a manual parking brake, probably a push on/off pedal on the left side.

I have similar thoughts to you.

It looks to me like there will be no fully manual parking brake, which is bad in case of computer failure. And surely it's illegal not to? Or maybe not? So I agree there should be an emergency manual parking brake. Its location would be driven by mechanical layout considerations, however. It's not clear where the chain/rods from the rear parking brake calipers would be in the front of the car, and it would have to be mechanically linked.

The following MUST have physical controls with clear tactile feedback, such as stalks on the steering column, because I use them without looking all the time:
- windshield wiper
- headlights (on/off, bright/dim)
- turn signal
- horn (OK, I don't use it all the time, but sometimes you need to hit it very quickly)
- front and rear defoggers

In these cases they really need to be standard hard physical controls. You do NOT want to be driving into a tunnel and going "where's that headlight control again?"

And you really do not want to be hunting for the defogger control while you have NO VISIBILITY out the front window because it fogged up at highway speed. If Tesla doesn't get this right... well, I hope the steering wheel buttons will be programmable to do, for instance, "spray hot air at windshield" and "spray cold air at windshield" and "rear defogger", because that's what they'll be doing.

The following SHOULD have physical controls because I want to use them while driving:
- foglights (on/off)
- radio (on/off, volume, tuning/track changing)

In these cases it's OK if I can configure 'multipurpose buttons' to control them. As DougG points out these buttons should be tactile, not flush. And these are not deal-breakers, it would just be annoying if there were no hard controls because I wouldn't be able to change stations without pulling over. (Or asking the passenger to. Or perhaps using voice control.)

 

[MitchL]

It looks to me like there will be no fully manual parking brake, which is bad in case of computer failure. And surely it's illegal not to? Or maybe not? So I agree there should be an emergency manual parking brake. Its location would be driven by mechanical layout considerations, however. It's not clear where the chain/rods from the rear parking brake calipers would be in the front of the car, and it would have to be mechanically linked.

I guess I'm enough of a computer nerd to know better than to trust computers . I was able to drive a friend's Leaf, and that's my only experience with an EV to date. The Leaf also appears to have an electric parking brake, you press a button and it engages/disengages. It seemed weird to me, but any big change also seems weird, like keyless ignition systems, or even when automatic transmissions became popular.

I hope that at least there will be some mechanical linkage between the brake pedal and the brakes, in case of power failure. I'm still a little spooked by the notion of braking or steering by wire, and I assume that with a sudden loss of power, I can still steer and bring the car to a halt, just like a conventional car.

The following MUST have physical controls with clear tactile feedback, such as stalks on the steering column, because I use them without looking all the time:
- windshield wiper
- headlights (on/off, bright/dim)
- turn signal
- horn (OK, I don't use it all the time, but sometimes you need to hit it very quickly)
- front and rear defoggers

I don't think the betas are good examples of what to expect, as I don't think we've seen the final steering column. But: The defroster controls were definitely on the touchscreen. Easily locatable along the bottom row of buttons, never obscured by other windows, but definitely on the touch screen. The headlight controls appeared to be there as well. I don't remember what was on the turn signal stock.

You do NOT want to be driving into a tunnel and going "where's that headlight control again?"
And you really do not want to be hunting for the defogger control while you have NO VISIBILITY out the front window because it fogged up at highway speed.

Bingo. This sort of thing troubles me... and even if I "get used to it", it may not have high WAF (wife acceptance factor). Endless teasing and commentary about how difficult the Model S is to operate from my better half will be humiliating .

/Mitch.

 

[Lyon]

Our Land Rover has an electronic parking break and I really like it. One of the nicest things about it is that, when the car is in D or R and the driver presses the gas, it automatically disengages. You can't forget to leave it on.

It would be nice if it set automatically, but that's okay.

 

[waltoninn]

The steering wheel is not the final one. Also I used to like the old dash too, but I kind of like the new one as well. I realized what I didn't like about the new one was the vents. Then I looked at the old one and the vents are small and non-functional. So there would need to be larger uglier vents in the dash. There are few dashboard vents that I like. I also like the old school approach of a cockpit-less cabin. It feels more open. I liked the older cars with the front bench seat and you could ride close with someone you love. This is one step towards that possibility. Future option?

I agree. Having an open front area below the dash and between the seats "opens" up the whole front seating area of the front cabin, which not only gives the impression of more spaciousness, but actually provides it. This is a very well designed car.

 

[SUN-day Driver]

In these cases they really need to be standard hard physical controls. You do NOT want to be driving into a tunnel and going "where's that headlight control again?"

On my Saab 9-3, the lights are on all the time, and I love never having to remember to turn them on or off. I can, of course, toggle the brights (stalk on steering column) and the front and back fog lights (dedicated buttons on dash), but the low beams are on whenever the engine is running. If the Model S automatically handles the lights (perhaps turning them on only when it's dark out, to conserve battery) I'll be happy.

 

[neroden]

On my Saab 9-3, the lights are on all the time, and I love never having to remember to turn them on or off. I can, of course, toggle the brights (stalk on steering column) and the front and back fog lights (dedicated buttons on dash), but the low beams are on whenever the engine is running. If the Model S automatically handles the lights (perhaps turning them on only when it's dark out, to conserve battery) I'll be happy.

It is *essential* to be able to turn the headlights off, and I'm going to tell you why.

I go to the drive-in. :biggrin:

I'd have to bring blackout cloth and tape it over the headlights if they were on whenever the car was turned on. Not acceptable. (It would almost be OK if they were only on when the car was in *drive*, but that's not what you described...)

I need to be able to have the car on, heating on, radio on, and lights off!

 

[neroden]

I don't think the betas are good examples of what to expect, as I don't think we've seen the final steering column. But: The defroster controls were definitely on the touchscreen. Easily locatable along the bottom row of buttons, never obscured by other windows, but definitely on the touch screen. The headlight controls appeared to be there as well.

Poor, very poor. Hope I can program those to the steering wheel buttons. Or that voice commands work well. Or that it's configurable enough that I can make each of the buttons about 6" x 6" and remove everything else from the touchscreen, because that's what it would take to use them blind on the touchscreen.

I suppose with the lights it would be OK to have them on by default and use the touchscreen to turn them OFF when necessary.

The defroster, however, has to be instantly-activatable, blindly, and can't be left on automatically. Is this California thinking at work again in Tesla?

 

[neroden]

I guess I'm enough of a computer nerd to know better than to trust computers .

All of our cars are massively electronic ready. I've been in an Audi in heavy fog where the wiring got cross-wired. The door locks activated the windshield wipers, the windshield wiper control activated the lights, ... we gave up and called a taxi.

I hope that at least there will be some mechanical linkage between the brake pedal and the brakes, in case of power failure. I'm still a little spooked by the notion of braking or steering by wire, and I assume that with a sudden loss of power, I can still steer and bring the car to a halt, just like a conventional car.

I hope so too! Without a mechanical power brake, I can't *imagine* that it would be road-legal to have a car whose brakes were entirely dependent on electrical connections! Well, I suppose I could imagine it, but that would indicate something seriously wrong with the regulations.

 

[Todd Burch]

I hope so too! Without a mechanical power brake, I can't *imagine* that it would be road-legal to have a car whose brakes were entirely dependent on electrical connections! Well, I suppose I could imagine it, but that would indicate something seriously wrong with the regulations.

I agree with you, although keep in mind that most modern airliners have zero mechanical linkage between the controls and any of the control surfaces. It's different of course (aircraft parts must have a much higher reliability rate and are inspected periodically), but the idea is the same. Fly-by-wire still freaks me out when I think about it.

 

[WhiteKnight]

Our Land Rover has an electronic parking break and I really like it. One of the nicest things about it is that, when the car is in D or R and the driver presses the gas, it automatically disengages. You can't forget to leave it on.

As the father of a 5 year old this would not be cool for our family. With keyless entry and keyless start our son can climb in the car, start it up and put it in Drive or Reverse and the parking brake automatically disengages. Maybe they need the option of a code (like an iPhone) to start the car (although my son spied on me and got the iPhone code too .

 

[Robert.Boston]

@WhiteKnight: he'll need to buckle the seat belt, which will help a bit. The car won't move unless the driver is belted in. I wonder whether Tesla could also add a minimum-weight-in-the-driver's-seat test? Presumably they have a weight sensor in the passenger seat (to determine air bag deployment); another on the driver's seat could serve as a second line of defense against children or dogs accidentally driving away.

 

[MitchL]

All of our cars are massively electronic ready. I've been in an Audi in heavy fog where the wiring got cross-wired. The door locks activated the windshield wipers, the windshield wiper control activated the lights, ... we gave up and called a taxi.

It's very amusing to look at the service manual for a modern car -- an engine block connected to a computer. I think many ICE cars these days are "accelerator by wire" at a minimum. My '08 Odyssey's transmission selector lever appears to be nothing more than a big switch, I doubt there's any mechanical linkage to the transmission itself.

I trust the ECUs on cars, since I feel they're fixed function units, hard to update firmware on (your dealer typically does it), and presumably well tested. The navigation computer, on the other hand, can be a cantankerous beast, and also controls the climate, audio, and handsfree phone. It can be updated by the customer, and the UI complexity is hard to fully test.

For this reason I'm assuming that the drivetrain controller in all EVs is a separate computer, like the ECU in an ICE car. It also makes sense to design it that way, keeping the drive train its own subsystem that can be designed by the drivetrain group, reused in other models, or licensed to third parties.

I hope so too! Without a mechanical power brake, I can't *imagine* that it would be road-legal to have a car whose brakes were entirely dependent on electrical connections! Well, I suppose I could imagine it, but that would indicate something seriously wrong with the regulations.

I would also think you'd need a mechanical way to _release_ the brake, even after they are applied, so you could tow the car if you needed to. Makes me wonder what "neutral" means on a single fixed-gear transmission. You wouldn't need a clutch if there was no true neutral, right?. 'course if I had to tow my model S, I'd insist on a flatbed....

/Mitch.