Wiki Model S EPA range discussion

[terranx]

As annoying as it is for everyone trying to get their cars, I'm glad Tesla is finally facing some sort of consequence for exaggerating their ratings. Us enthusiasts all know the numbers were BS, but so many people who aren't as plugged into the scene specifically chose Tesla because of those numbers.

And really the ratings changes were known about 2 years ago and Tesla could have used the revised methodology as early as last year. So it's really just awful planning on their parts.

mod note: moved these posts from order update thread

 

[tofel]

As annoying as it is for everyone trying to get their cars, I'm glad Tesla is finally facing some sort of consequence for exaggerating their ratings. Us enthusiasts all know the numbers were BS, but so many people who aren't as plugged into the scene specifically chose Tesla because of those numbers.

And really the ratings changes were known about 2 years ago and Tesla could have used the revised methodology as early as last year. So it's really just awful planning on their parts.

Tesla legitimately may be one of the worst companies I've ever had to to deal with - the product they eventually deliver is stellar, but every supporting facet of the company makes you want to slam your head into a door

just got finished chasing Tesla around to finally get the MVPA generated, less than a day before I go to pick up the car. I had to go get information about my bank for Tesla to add them to their registry or something, which they hadn't at all asked for and would've caused the delivery to be cancelled if I hadn't hounded them over it

 

[Gibby13]

I totally get the legality of them not selling cars prior to the EPA publications. But for people like myself, it'd be nice if we could just sign a contract stating we understand potential reductions and would like to take delivery anyways. Everyone here knows what the real world performance is, and I doubt anybody cancels their orders after the new testing.

 

[sorka]

The internet was correct. I got there today and they told me to go home. But someone did get lucky yesterday and drive home with theirs. Don't know if they will ask them to drive it back. The internet was correct.

I know. I was trying to be nice.....and a little hopeful at the same time.

If the 405 rated is reduced after the final cert, if the really did let someone drive off with an MSLR yesterday, then they'd be within their rights to completely unwind the sale. My guess is the S that drove off was actually a Plaid.

 

[dn325ci]

I totally get the legality of them not selling cars prior to the EPA publications. But for people like myself, it'd be nice if we could just sign a contract stating we understand potential reductions and would like to take delivery anyways. Everyone here knows what the real world performance is, and I doubt anybody cancels their orders after the new testing.

Agreed. I never got EPA ratings for ICE vehicles, either. I'm fine with it.

Still, I think there should be more reality with it, so I think this engagement that is presently underway will make these published estimates better. I recall Out Of Spec's 70mph highway range result was 367 miles on a '22 Plaid, and the revised range estimate is 359 on Tesla's website today, so it's probably a good thing. Both MXLR and MXP also look similarly realistic now.

I also understand them trying to maximize the range estimate for their longest range vehicle, the MSLR, so I'm sure that's part of the back-and-forth on it now.

 

[terranx]

Agreed. I never got EPA ratings for ICE vehicles, either. I'm fine with it.

Granted I never particularly cared to buy an efficient ICE vehicle, but I've never not beat the EPA ratings of the ICE cars I've owned.

The only Tesla I've come close to matching the EPA ratings were an old model s 70D. M3P and Plaid I never got close

 

[BBartoli]

Tesla delays Model S and Model Y deliveries over EPA issues

Tesla has been forced to delay deliveries of the Model S Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive (AWD) and Model Y Performance in the United States. Tesla instituted the delivery pause at the request of the US […]

driveteslacanada.ca

 

[BBartoli]

On February 1st ordered a MSLR. Then I saw my build in transit to Miramar Tesla so I switched to the inventory vehicle. It arrived on Feb 2nd. My first pick up date was Feb 10. Then told of a hold up (told Firmware and Government hold) and new pick up date was Feb 17th, Then told about the EPA problem needing to do more testing for range and given a new date of Feb 28th. Saw an article that is calling for the EPA hold until March 7th at the earliest.

Tesla delays Model S and Model Y deliveries over EPA issues

Tesla has been forced to delay deliveries of the Model S Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive (AWD) and Model Y Performance in the United States. Tesla instituted the delivery pause at the request of the US […]

driveteslacanada.ca

 

[SucreTease]

As annoying as it is for everyone trying to get their cars, I'm glad Tesla is finally facing some sort of consequence for exaggerating their ratings.

Tesla did not exaggerate the range of their vehicles. The ranges are determined by testing carried out by the EPA. Tesla cannot state a range different from what the EPA measures (it might be legal to understate the range, but certainly not overstate it). Moreover, the EPA does not even test the range by driving the vehicle; it is tested on a dynamometer, then multiplied by a factor to account for drag. The revised testing protocol was supposed to improve on numbers that reflect real-world ranges.

 

[lmsampson]

Tesla delays Model S and Model Y deliveries over EPA issues

Tesla has been forced to delay deliveries of the Model S Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive (AWD) and Model Y Performance in the United States. Tesla instituted the delivery pause at the request of the US […]

driveteslacanada.ca

Is this the first public acknowledgment? Outside of speculation? Side note: I hate that I get more information from you fine folks and the internet than from my assigned advisor that I ask point blank and who just responds with well the vehicle is probably in the production cycle, maybe.

 

[dsm363]

Tesla did not exaggerate the range of their vehicles. The ranges are determined by testing carried out by the EPA. Tesla cannot state a range different from what the EPA measures (it might be legal to understate the range, but certainly not overstate it). Moreover, the EPA does not even test the range by driving the vehicle; it is tested on a dynamometer, then multiplied by a factor to account for drag. The revised testing protocol was supposed to improve on numbers that reflect real-world ranges.

It's not that simple. Tesla isn't doing anything illegal but they are taking a lot of optional modifiers and make the range as rosy as possible. Something Porsche and others don't do. Which is why owners get close to or exceed their range usually with Porsche.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44754199/tesla-range-display-estimate-tested/

and

The Secret Adjustment Factor Tesla Uses to Get Its Big EPA Range Numbers

How Tesla puts distance between itself and the competition while still playing by the EPA's rules.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[popgodazipa]

Ladies and gentlemen of TMC, I implore you! You can blame a lot of things on Tesla and Elon, but not this!

Here me well...do you really believe it takes this long to run mileage test on a car, test that can be done at Tesla, an EPA facility or any garage with the proper set up? A few days, maybe a week but not a full month. No, this is some just plain old bureaucracy by some EPA schmuckity, schmuck, who's a few years away from collecting a pension, and needs to justify his or her job. What protection of the environment does this hold serve...for a zero emission car? What risk is it to the public of releasing these cars, particularly if said owner is ok with "risk"? Does anyone doubt that the Biden administrations negative bias towards Tesla has not found its way to the rules makers of the EPA? Ladies and gentlemen this is plain and simple government over reach at its worst.

 

[terranx]

The Model Y isn't selling at all due to the EPA hold. This quarter is going to be a disaster if the hold doesn't lift in a few days.

It's only the performance that's on hold as far as I know

 

[terranx]

Tesla did not exaggerate the range of their vehicles. The ranges are determined by testing carried out by the EPA. Tesla cannot state a range different from what the EPA measures (it might be legal to understate the range, but certainly not overstate it). Moreover, the EPA does not even test the range by driving the vehicle; it is tested on a dynamometer, then multiplied by a factor to account for drag. The revised testing protocol was supposed to improve on numbers that reflect real-world ranges.

EPA does not do any testing. Each manufacturer does its own testing and submits their results to the EPA. Tesla has always had the least accurate results taking advantage of flaws in EPA's methodology. EPA finally made it stricter, which forced Tesla to revise its rosy estimates. The changes were optional to implement for MY2023, mandatory for MY2024. Tesla apparently did not do its due diligence and test the cars early enough to avoid potential issues.

Presumably with the MSLR specifically, they tried implementing some bullshit changes to try to keep the range estimate above 400 miles, and the EPA is probably calling them out on it.

 

[sorka]

It's not that simple. Tesla isn't doing anything illegal but they are taking a lot of optional modifiers and make the range as rosy as possible. Something Porsche and others don't do. Which is why owners get close to or exceed their range usually with Porsche.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44754199/tesla-range-display-estimate-tested/

and

The Secret Adjustment Factor Tesla Uses to Get Its Big EPA Range Numbers

How Tesla puts distance between itself and the competition while still playing by the EPA's rules.

www.caranddriver.com

This seems like the most unrealistic test you could imagine:

"EVs are strapped to a dynamometer—essentially a treadmill for cars—and repeatedly run through a test regimen that ends only when the battery is depleted to the point that the vehicle can no longer maintain the required speed. This procedure uses the same EPA city cycle (20-mph average speed over 7.5 miles with 18 stops) and highway cycle (48-mph average speed, 10.3 miles) used for fuel-economy tests of all light-duty vehicles. "

This test doesn't seem like it would factor in aerodynamics or CD which is key for efficiency.

 

[terranx]

This seems like the most unrealistic test you could imagine:

"EVs are strapped to a dynamometer—essentially a treadmill for cars—and repeatedly run through a test regimen that ends only when the battery is depleted to the point that the vehicle can no longer maintain the required speed. This procedure uses the same EPA city cycle (20-mph average speed over 7.5 miles with 18 stops) and highway cycle (48-mph average speed, 10.3 miles) used for fuel-economy tests of all light-duty vehicles. "

This test doesn't seem like it would factor in aerodynamics or CD which is key for efficiency.

I think there is some sort of multiplier applied that takes Cd and frontal area into account. I agree it's not the best way to do the testing either way

 

[sorka]

It's only the performance that's on hold as far as I know

And interestingly the article seems to confirm that only the MSLR is on EPA hold and not the MSP.

 

[terranx]

And interestingly the article seems to confirm that only the MSLR is on EPA hold and not the MSP.

And both of the models in question are models without certificates of conformity on the EPA site. Assuming Tesla didn't just straight up forget to submit them, the EPA probably disagrees with their results in some way or another

 

[sorka]

I think there is some sort of multiplier applied that takes Cd and frontal area into account. I agree it's not the best way to do the testing either way

It would have to take into account it's frontal area as well. The CD is not the only factor that effects overall drag from air friction.

 

[sorka]

And both of the models in question are models without certificates of conformity on the EPA site. Assuming Tesla didn't just straight up forget to submit them, the EPA probably disagrees with their results in some way or another

I think that's the most likely explanation.