Wiki Model S EPA range discussion

[dsm363]

The issue there was a different one, of course, about emissions.

Nuance missing in your question, as usual. Every company tries to maximize or minimize, as the rules allow. I think we can agree on that. VW was clearly emitting above the allowable thresholds. So that's an illegal action, no matter what motivated them.

Tesla has, to our knowledge, worked within what the rules allow. That is not illegal action.

Which was related to mpg. The only way they could meet the high mpg numbers they advertised and meet emission standards was to cheat with a chip that would give low emissions/high mpg on the dyno but then boost emissions when on the road and give the power people expected (along with crappy mpg).

No one has said Telsa did anything illegal here. Just that they took a flawed system and knowingly used every loophole imaginable to bump the range up to numbers they knew most people wouldn't get. Something Porsche hasn't done.

 

[terranx]

You can't test the vehicles until you are making them. If they didn't make any 2024 model year vehicles until December they couldn't have submitted earlier. They were probably working on the assumption that the EPA would process/approve them in the same time as in the past.

EPA tests are done with preproduction vehicles all the time. The car doesn't have to be titled as a 2024 model to be representative of what they plan to sell for the 2024 model year.

They could be using the exception that allows them to continue using the prior rating because there were no changes. Maybe the EPA disagrees and thinks there are changes that require using the new procedures.

Sure. All of their other vehicles which had no material changes had to run new tests. But the car that lets them claim rosy numbers for themselves miraculously was eligible for an exemption. I don't think even Tesla is dumb enough to claim that.

 

[dn325ci]

Which was related to mpg. The only way they could meet the high mpg numbers they advertised and meet emission standards was to cheat with a chip that would give low emissions/high mpg on the dyno but then boost emissions when on the road and give the power people expected (along with crappy mpg).

No one has said Telsa did anything illegal here. Just that they took a flawed system and knowingly used every loophole imaginable to bump the range up to numbers they knew most people wouldn't get. Something Porsche hasn't done.

Oh wow. Porsche is your pedestal of integrity, owned by VW your gutter of dishonesty? OK, bro.

Porsche diesels were implicated in that investigation, too, you know.

 

[terranx]

Porsche diesels were implicated in that investigation, too, you know.

Porsche diesels were Porsche in name only. They were quite literally VW engines with the Porsche label slapped on them. Porsche engineers weren't involved in the engine mapping.

 

[dsm363]

Oh wow. Porsche is your pedestal of integrity, owned by VW your gutter of dishonesty? OK, bro.

Porsche diesels were implicated in that investigation, too, you know.

Seriously you need to simmer down 'bro'. Well, after a $2 billion fine in the US alone and a few execs in jail in Germany, maybe they changed a bit?

VW executive given the maximum prison sentence for his role in Dieselgate

He previously led the company’s US environmental and engineering office

www.theverge.com

Facts are facts. Porsche's EPA range matches closer to reality on what most owners get when they drive than Tesla. True or false?

 

[terranx]

Facts are facts. Porsche's EPA range matches closer to reality on what most owners get when they drive than Tesla. True or false?

Actually I'd say they're just as inaccurate, except in the other direction. Porsches will routinely beat their rated range by 75-100 miles. Teslas will usually fall short by the same amount.

Obviously one result is much less shady than the other.

Well genius, after a $2 billion fine in the US alone and a few execs in jail in Germany, maybe they changed a bit?

You know I think that'd be an acceptable outcome here too. Fine Tesla and throw Elon in jail

 

[dn325ci]

Porsche diesels were Porsche in name only. They were quite literally VW engines with the Porsche label slapped on them. Porsche engineers weren't involved in the engine mapping.

I see. VW are criminals and VW-owned Porsche saintly.

Seriously you need to simmer down 'bro'. Well genius, after a $2 billion fine in the US alone and a few execs in jail in Germany, maybe they changed a bit?

Facts are facts. Porsche's EPA range matches closer to reality on what most owners get when they drive than Tesla. True or false?

I feel pretty chill. You're the one name calling. I just called you my bro.

Facts are facts. Porsche to pay $80 mln to resolve fuel economy claims on U.S. vehicles

 

[dsm363]

Actually I'd say they're just as inaccurate, except in the other direction. Porsches will routinely beat their rated range by 75-100 miles. Teslas will usually fall short by the same amount.

Obviously one result is much less shady than the other.



You know I think that'd be an acceptable outcome here too. Fine Tesla and throw Elon in jail

Having one range number was always a dumb move by the EPA anyway. But for EVs especially, having people meet or exceed the rated range is far better for consumer confidence than the other way. It might hurt sales as they can't brag about having a 400 mile car though. Which clearly was on Tesla's mind.

 

[terranx]

I see. VW are criminals and VW-owned Porsche saintly.

Porsche has operated pretty independently regardless their ownership. So yeah, I 100% believe one part of a large conglomerate can have relatively ethical actors while other parts can have literal criminals.

 

[dn325ci]

Porsche has operated pretty independently regardless their ownership. So yeah, I 100% believe one part of a large conglomerate can have relatively ethical actors while other parts can have literal criminals.

Truly amazing how you give every benefit of the doubt to those you like, and zero to those you disagree with ideologically. Porsche has plenty of history as criminals, if you'd like to discuss it.

 

[terranx]

Having one range number was always a dumb move by the EPA anyway. But for EVs especially, having people meet or exceed the rated range is far better for consumer confidence than the other way. It might hurt sales as they can't brag about having a 400 mile car though. Which clearly was on Tesla's mind.

Yeah I agree. Or if they had to have a single number, it really should have been the highway range that's front and center since city range is pretty irrelevant when you plug in overnight regardless.

 

[dsm363]

I see. VW are criminals and VW-owned Porsche saintly.

I feel pretty chill. You're the one name calling. I just called you my bro.

Facts are facts. Porsche to pay $80 mln to resolve fuel economy claims on U.S. vehicles

Name calling? I'm really glad I'm not your 'bro'. That would be upsetting.

$80 million is less than $2+ billion. So improvement there. Never said Porsche was perfect. Just that their EV range matches closer to reality than Tesla. Also from your own article "Porsche confirmed the settlement in a statement but said it has "not acknowledged the allegations in these proceedings. The agreement serves to end the issue. The comparison applies only to vehicles sold in the United States."" VW admitted to diesel gate and multiple people went to jail.

 

[terranx]

Truly amazing how you give every benefit of the doubt to those you like, and zero to those you disagree with ideologically. Porsche has plenty of history as criminals, if you'd like to discuss it.

That's well known, as is the case with many long standing German companies. But when discussing the companies as they exist in 2024? Yeah they're 100% more ethical than Tesla. I'm sure individual engineers within Tesla tend to be decent hardworking people. But the leadership? Some of the worst society has to offer. Particularly the guy at the top.

 

[dn325ci]

Name calling? I'm really glad I'm not your 'bro'. That would be upsetting.

$80 million is less than $2+ billion. So improvement there. Never said Porsche was perfect. Just that their EV range matches closer to reality than Tesla. Also from your own article "Porsche confirmed the settlement in a statement but said it has "not acknowledged the allegations in these proceedings. The agreement serves to end the issue. The comparison applies only to vehicles sold in the United States."" VW admitted to diesel gate and multiple people went to jail.

I checked and you're good on the math there. Porsche got off with less because their volume is dramatically lower. Their crime was no less heinous. Actually, I agree that their EV range matches closer to reality.

That's well known, as is the case with many long standing German companies. But when discussing the companies in 2024? Yeah they're 100% more ethical than Tesla. I'm sure individual engineers within Tesla tend to be decent hardworking people. But the leadership? Some of the worst society has to offer. Particularly the guy at the top.

Tesla leadership has changed the auto industry and the world. It took a bold vision, a lot of guts, and a gauntlet of obstacles to overcome. I commend them all. Actually, I think your heroes are the worst society has offered.

 

[dsm363]

Yeah I agree. Or if they had to have a single number, it really should have been the highway range that's front and center since city range is pretty irrelevant when you plug in overnight regardless.

Since the information is now all online and there really isn't a 'window sticker', they could list far more information.

City range
highway range

Range at 65mph and 75mph (both at 32F and 90F for example). So lots of numbers but would educate people that if it's cold and you're driving fast, range goes way down. And the highway test cycle of average speed 48mph is a joke. Much like some people who defend Tesla and Elon at every turn.

 

[terranx]

Tesla leadership has changed the auto industry and the world. It took a bold vision, a lot of guts, and a gauntlet of obstacles to overcome. I commend them all.

Truly amazing how you can offer nothing but praise for those you ideologically agree with and none to those you disagree with ideologically. Tesla and its leadership have plenty of history of making false or deeply exaggerated claims, if you'd like to discuss it.

 

[dn325ci]

Truly amazing how you can offer nothing but praise for those you ideologically agree with and none to those you disagree with ideologically. Tesla and its leadership have plenty of history of making false or deeply exaggerated claims, if you'd like to discuss it.

I take pride in bringing balance to the Force.

I'll take my team's exaggerated claims over your team's criminality.

 

[dsm363]

Truly amazing how you can offer nothing but praise for those you ideologically agree with and none to those you disagree with ideologically. Tesla and its leadership have plenty of history of making false or deeply exaggerated claims, if you'd like to discuss it.

It's funny how some people can't keep two concepts that are different together. That Tesla has done and continues to do amazing things. That their leadership pushed forward those amazing things. But that those same people have also implemented some really dumb design decision and practices and that their CEO has made a very bad public turn and pushed some rather vile topics to the forefront on social media.

 

[terranx]

It's funny how some people can't keep two concepts that are different together. That Tesla has done and continues to do amazing things. That their leadership pushed forward those amazing things. But that those same people have also implemented some really dumb design decision and practices and that their CEO has made a very bad public turn and pushed some rather vile topics to the forefront on social media.

I'm somewhat doubtful on the continuing to do amazing things part of the equation. Maybe they'll surprise us with this gen3 vehicle / model 2 / whatever they call it. But past the release of the model Y I'm not seeing anything particularly noteworthy. The 4680s ended up being duds. The Cybertruck seems to show they've forgotten what made them successful in the first place (making an EV that is straight up just a good car, but electric - rather than having polarizing design just to be different etc). No major motor developments since the Plaid. And the continued worsening of the cars driver assist suite in the pursuit of some fantasy about using cameras because humans have two eyes.

All the while - Lucid now produces a far more technically impressive motor than Tesla. Pretty much all of the high end companies have better batteries now. And others have beaten them to the punch of unattended self driving.

 

[terranx]

400K lost per vehicle, by recent estimates. I hope the Gravity is great.

Tesla's numbers once looked similarly dire