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Wiki Model S EPA range discussion
- Thread starter terranx
- Start date
You're making a lot of assumptions there... And EPA does sometimes do testing. (I think the last delay for Model S deliveries was because the EPA was doing the testing and they screwed up the procedures, getting a result under 400 miles, and Tesla made them re-test properly following procedures to get the correct results.)
We will just have to wait and see what happens. (I assumed Tesla was opting to use the 2023 values for the Model S since the vehicle hasn't changed, so they aren't required to switch to the new 2024 test procedures.)
I'm pretty sure that a "roll down" test is performed to get the aero drag numbers and that is applied to the dyno test results to get the real numbers.
Yes! It's kinda become my job, which I'm finding myself enjoying. Thanks for noticing.
How many manufacturers have been throttled on these issues? As @popgodazipa pointed out earlier today, this is the mantle the EPA has taken on. Frankly, in the ICE world it was more of a necessity, though debatable in EV landscape, as he said. Many, many manfuacturers have been "caught" later by the EPA. I remember Hyundai/Kia getting in big trouble 2 years ago because EPA said they overstated MPG estimate. The tension will continue and other manufacturers will continue to have these conflicts. So it is.
Ah so you are a paid shill like I always suspected. That clears up a lot
To my knowledge, Tesla is the only EV manufacturer that has seen reduced ranges or EVs temporarily barred from sale with the updated procedure.
Yes it's the EPA's job to hold manufacturers to a standard, periodically update the standards to adapt to a changing market, and enforce those standards, no one is denying that. But certainly Tesla is the only one that seems to have deliberately taken advantage of flaws with the old procedure to exaggerate range to such a degree.
To your knowledge! Pays to be unknowledgeable!
Has the EPA said they are barred from sale? I think Tesla is wanting EPA retesting and they initiated this hold.
But I'm going to agree with you that I think Tesla's range estimates have been bigger than most. I recall a video (a year ago?) of many EV's testing against their range, and almost all of them fell short, but as a % my recollection was that Tesla's ranges were a bigger reduction, by about 10% more off than the Mach E as I recall.
Not a big poster here, I just follow this thread to see what’s up with my order. But can we take the other chatter to another thread please and keep this one on topic? Thanks
The earlier political discussion on Elon's worthiness for sure doesn't belong here but the chatter about EPA testing and arguments about the delays, motivations, testing accuracy, etc totally belong here because they have relevance on when Tesla might start releasing MSLRs.
Besides, I'd just prepared popcorn to sit down and watch the Friday night fight here. Much more interesting than anything on tv
Are you aware of an EV other than Tesla that has its listed range reduced due to the rule changes? Similarly, are you aware of an EV that has been barred from sale due to differences in rule changes?
It's not so much that the EPA has said anything. It's more what they haven't done - i.e issue a certificate of conformity. Tesla cannot legally sell MY2024 cars without having a certificate of conformity issued for MY2024 models. Most of the time they just need to do the testing for the initial introduction of a model and get a certificate. For future years if there are no significant hardware/software changes that impact the stuff EPA cares about for subsequent model years, they just resubmit the original testing and get issued a certificate. For MY2024 they were required to use the new procedure, so they had to retest all of their cars. To date the MSLR and MYP have yet to be issued certificates.
None of us know 100% why that certificate hasn't been issued. We'll probably never know the full details. All we know is that there is a holdup that is apparently expected to resolve in early March -- though the date has been slipping every time the anticipated date has approached.
It is amusing how some here think the EPA is the 'testing agency' that tests all cars.The earlier political discussion on Elon's worthiness for sure doesn't belong here but the chatter about EPA testing and arguments about the delays, motivations, testing accuracy, etc totally belong here because they have relevance on when Tesla might start releasing MSLRs.
Besides, I'd just prepared popcorn to sit down and watch the Friday night fight here. Much more interesting than anything on tv
How Vehicles Are Tested
Fuel economy is measured under controlled conditions in a laboratory using a standardized test procedure specified by federal law. Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of...
www.fueleconomy.gov
But I expect the range of the long range Model S to drop.
zoomer0056
Active Member
I must have missed this. Is there a public viewable certificate? Can it be seen that one was rescinded or not awarded?
My cheap swing and a miss at an underhand pitch. Bad joke. My apologies. I have no more knowledge about it than you. Probably less.
Right. I don't think it's beneficial to "suspect" or "postulate" who's right or wrong. You say Tesla. @popgodazipa is suspect of EPA, which I have historical suspicions about, too. Reasons. All pure speculation.
Well keep in mind the Model S LR is the only model Tesla claims has miraculously managed to maintain the same range under the new test (while the Plaid lost 36 miles for the 19" variant and 28 for the 21"). So I think it stands to reason that Tesla was trying to game the numbers to be able to market themselves as having a >400 mile EV for sale.
zoomer0056
Active Member
Ha, I think I'll rely on the group to tell me the results. I gave it a three minute try and am not willing to keep entering different inputs until I understand. Thanks for the link.
Just select Tesla under manufacturer. Results are ordered by date.
We agree! Yes, I think they are working their asses off to save as much range as possible on MSLR, and in their best interest to do so. Probably led to a tire change and in turn a max speed change, although the timing of the change relative to actual VIN cutoff of '23 seems not precise.
I think your phrasing of "gaming" is unfortunate. But I think you realize that every company in the world tries to work in their best interest and that of their shareholders.
You can't test the vehicles until you are making them. If they didn't make any 2024 model year vehicles until December they couldn't have submitted earlier. They were probably working on the assumption that the EPA would process/approve them in the same time as in the past.
Where have they said that? I don't think they have.
They could be using the exception that allows them to continue using the prior rating because there were no changes. Maybe the EPA disagrees and thinks there are changes that require using the new procedures.
Like VW then I assume. In your opinion, were they just looking out for their shareholders or gaming the system?
They usually test preproduction vehicles themselves and submit the data. The EPA only tests about 15% of cars and trucks.
How Vehicles Are Tested
Fuel economy is measured under controlled conditions in a laboratory using a standardized test procedure specified by federal law. Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of...
www.fueleconomy.gov
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