Model S is long in the tooth

[bob_p]

Could Tesla provide more features in S/X? Absolutely!

Would that have a significant impact on S/X sales? Probably not... Which is why Musk recently commented that S/X refresh was unlikely right now.

A major reason why Tesla is losing S/X sales is that there is now a competing long range EV (Model 3 and soon to be Model Y) at a significantly lower price point. Many S/X customers were spending way more to purchase an S/X than any other previous vehicle - and once a lower priced alternative was available, it's not surprising the market shifted (as Musk likely knew all along) to the lower priced model.

So Tesla is still selling an increasing number of vehicles - and the shift from S/X to 3 was probably expected. And investing in S/X model changes at this time likely would not have a significant impact on sales - because the Model 3 is still the only real competition for the S/X.

As for the "stale" S/X designs...

Our first Tesla (2012 S P85) was purchased in early 2013 - and we ended up putting almost 100K miles on the vehicle.

When we purchased our next Model S - 2017 S 100D, the fact that the exterior and interior were not significantly different was not a concern.

Since S went into production - they have made significant improvements - power folding mirrors, parking sensors, TACC, AP 1/2/2.5/3, improved seating materials, … - and new features that were initially part of a "premium" package are now included as standard. Range has increased every few years - and charging speeds are getting better.

Plus, we've seen all Tesla vehicles receive upgraded features through OTA updates - such as the major upgrade in the navigation system from using stale onboard map data to using a cloud server with more up-to-date maps.

We'll likely continue to see Tesla make smaller changes to the S/X - and wouldn't be surprised for major changes to be deferred until Tesla believes they are close to getting FSD working (even on Musk time, that is at least 18-24 months from now).

 

[Chickenlittle]

Probably get pounded for saying this because it's not positive and likely beaten to death, but the MS just isn't keeping up with alternatives in the price range. Note: I'm pro-Tesla, pro-electric. However I think the early concept of "no compromise" was right. A 100D or P100D is an expensive car and buyers should expect a lot.

Drove my wife's 2019 BMW X7 and the interior, electronics, creature comforts, steering feel, basically everything is better than my 2018 MS. And I generally dislike big SUVs - I can only imagine what the latest tricked out 5-series must be like.

I have a full monty deposit down on the Roadster but I'm getting nervous about Tesla's plans to actually build the car. Seems (and probably appropriately so) that their focus is elsewhere. Maybe they shouldn't have taken $250K deposits on a car they didn't have a solid plan to build, but I digress.

Unless Tesla builds the Roadster or does a full model changeover (not a BS refresh) I wonder if I can continue to drive what feels like a 2012 car in 2020. For now I'm going to continue to love never going to the gas station, the convenience of AP, etc. But as Porsche, BMW (and others) continue to refine their cars the value prop of Tesla for the luxury (no compromise) buyer is eroding quickly.

Forks are long in the tooth too. No intention of buying anymore of those too

 

[RecklessFury]

Have you driven a recent BMW? If Tesla ditched their infotainment/cluster and replaced it with BMW's current one it would be vast improvement. Imagine being able to:
-browse playlists/albums/artists on your phone via BT or USB connection
-Scroll through/select track or stations using the steering wheel/cluster (instead of just forward/back)
-Control phone apps on the screen via either Carplay or BMW's built in phone app mirroring
-Not be forced to use a touch screen (that is more distracting/ hard to use) while driving (instead you'd have the option of a conveniently placed scroll wheel)
-Activate the car's voice control using a wake-up work (just as you can with Google Home, Alexa, Siri, etc)
-Add waypoints to your nav route
-Find available parking spots/ garages using the nav system
-Choose from several alternate routes and routing options
-Have the option of a configurable heads-up display
-See a surround view image of your car (And even pan around it as if you were standing outside of it)


That's just off the top of my head. About the only thing that Tesla does arguably better is having a built-in music streaming option although I prefer to use the same music sources/apps that i have on my phone. Even the advantage of the larger screen is debatable (other than looking cool)- Tesla needs one due to the touch only interface. Also Tesla crams the climate control onto the screen whereas BMW has separate knobs/buttons. And, in the case of the model 3, they cram the cluster onto the center screen as well (also somewhat negating the apparent size advantage). Even OTA updates are now done by many automakers (including BMW). Stuff like dog mode, dashcam, sentry mode and some video games aren't enough to make up for Tesla not getting the basics right. As for feeling like 2012, you're right, BMW has had some of these features since before then.

Yeah, its a pretty hefty list of what it can't do. It should be noted that you can control your climate control on the S and X via the scroll wheels.

I'm hoping for new features though. Next month in theory we get Netflix and YouTube. Not sure why we don't have a phone mirror option. I bought an X after having a 2007 Highlander Hybrid with a 300 dollar after market carjoying radio. That radio was full android, I had my G-Maps, Waze and any android app I wanted. It was only a 7" screen though. I think once Tesla's software engineers wake up, I'll get some of these things in a software update. Screen Mirroring would solve all our issues to be honest with infotainment center. That 3rd party screen mirroring add on kit is looking better every day.

 

[realvvk]

Drove my wife's 2019 BMW X7 and the interior, electronics, creature comforts, steering feel, basically everything is better than my 2018 MS. And I generally dislike big SUVs - I can only imagine what the latest tricked out 5-series must be like.

Bah, when I test drove my MS two years ago, I already thought that compared to my 2010 BMW 550i. Suspension, interior, steering, brakes, seats, etc. But once you own it for a little while, you understand that all that stuff is secondary. I hate driving ICE vehicles now. Also, AP has spoiled me rotten.

 

[Darmie]

Just read a thread on Reddit, gentleman saved up money over the years for his dream car, an F type. Went for a test drive, drove the I pace. Friend mention owe it to yourself to do a test drive the Tesla. You see where this is going.

 

[robg]

IDK,
my wife has a fully loaded X3 M40i and it seems kinda archaic after I got my P100DL. Screen seems puny, all these knobs are kinda annoying, I always forget to turn off the ignition cuz I'm used to putting the car into park and walking away, etc...
Surround view and CarPlay are nice but that's about all I miss.

For sure- was

Yeah I have, the infotainment is still *sugar*. Sure some features like Carplay are good but the only reason it is needed is that the rest is so old and doesn’t have things like Spotify and games built in. When Youtube and Netflix comes out for the Teslas the gap is going to grow huge.

The fact that it is not made for touch is the big reason why it is so archaic, that means the entire layout goes more towards submenus. Using a touch screen while driving isn’t a problem, the same way you learn how to navigate your phone blindly you learn how to do every day tasks on the screen. We live in the age of touch screens so that interface is what we are used to and it is easy to adapt.

Yeah there are some nice features like the 3D view parking thing in the BMW, head up displays and such but that isn’t really a infotainment thing, those are stand alone options. Something I already said was a strong point for BMW.

Fair enough-for me the highest priorities for an infotainment system are nav, phone and media integration. And even just in those areas I think BMW (as well as the latest MB and Audi systems) are ahead. Games and Youtube are cool to show friends, but don't add much to the daily experience. I'm sure Elon considers those things to be "boring" so no resources get spent on them. Built-in Spotify is certainly an advantage in Europe- unfortunately Tesla doesn't offer it in the US (just slacker).

I understand why Tesla went with an all-touch interface, but having tried both, I prefer the option of being able to control common functions via feel when driving. Scrolling though radio stations or tracks with a wheel, for example, is just so much faster/easier than on a touch screen. Actually, that's something Tesla used to allow from the steering wheel but removed in a later update for some odd reason. The "age of touch screens" works great when you're not driving. Guess we'll just agree to disagree on that one. Honestly, the all-touch interface is something I'd tolerate if they'd just bring their phone integration and nav up to par.

Even a Tesla sales guy agreed with me. On a test drive he said "Yeah, that [infotainment] isn't really Tesla's strong suit".

 

[Alset4S]

Good points folks. And I do continue to enjoy the MS. I agree that the tech and the drivetrain are the things that make Tesla special. Obviously the ultra-smooth acceleration is awesome. I just wish Tesla could also improve the interior to be comparable to other cars in the price range. I do acknowledge that my 2018 is a good bit better than my 2015 in this regard but still not on par the other options out there.

So it seems that for you to have the car you desire either Tesla needs to improve their interior OR the comparable cars in the price range need to improve to Tesla in tech, drive train and the smooth ludicrous acceleration. IMHO neither is going to happen anytime soon.

By the way navigation using voice on my brother in law's 2019 BMW is pretty much unuseable.

 

[iqless]

As much as I wanna say "your FACE is long in the tooth!!!" I agree with some of the points.

But Tesla operates so differently in every way. I wouldn't be surprised if Elon came out and said "there will be no visual updates ever, I think the car looks great as it is forever".

 

[Mike Robinson]

it would be nice if Tesla updated the Model S info on their web & ordering pages though - they mention the range, but nothing else about the new models.

What differences do you notice in your new Raven MS vs. your previous MS? Do you see significant improvement in the Model S??

 

[jdw]

Smoother, quieter, faster and goes further plus a ton of incremental changes. I put together a list of changes over the past 4 years here.

 

[bhzmark]

The cliched phrase "long in the tooth" is long in the tooth.

 

[tranzndance]

The cliched phrase "long in the tooth" is long in the tooth.

It seems ironic that the phrase that originally referred to old horses is being used for a modern car that still looks great.

 

[mrbulk]

Most posts here center on the differences in the controls, buttons and toys each car has, not on the cars themselves nor their driving traits, not to mention Autopilot.
Yet there is still no widely available electric vehicle actually being produced, that compares to (any) Teslas. So I was surprised when I first read the title, because I thought there would be comparisons to other EV's available now, meaning available Now. There are none, and Tesla's choice of simplifying rather than "clutterizing", if that's a word, the interior operations of their switchgear and the like was exactly that, a choice. There will be folks who still prefer their shiny arrays of buttons, switches and gadgets, and more power to them. Because that's the only way the other makers will be able to continue selling even a fraction of the cars they were used to.

 

[Magellan55]

I enjoy these claims of the Model S “failing” or falling behind the competition. And yet it still holds the #1 position among US large luxury sedans by a fair margin, far outselling the supposedly better BMW 7 series. This after a more affordable EV stole those Prius/Accord/3-series owners who previously had no other EV option, and the drop in tax rebates.

Seems the market doesn’t agree that the Model S is fallen.

 

[NoMoGas]

Good points folks. And I do continue to enjoy the MS. I agree that the tech and the drivetrain are the things that make Tesla special. Obviously the ultra-smooth acceleration is awesome. I just wish Tesla could also improve the interior to be comparable to other cars in the price range. I do acknowledge that my 2018 is a good bit better than my 2015 in this regard but still not on par the other options out there.

You could just do a custom interior if it means that much to ya

 

[jaguar36]

Seems the market doesn’t agree that the Model S is fallen.

The sales are down 40% since the Q4 2018, and they aren't hitting the numbers that Elon said he was looking for.

 

[bob_p]

Outside of changes Tesla will continue to make with battery packs, charging and motors, the biggest improvements to S/X will come from software.

Continuing to add more capabilities to AP and achieving FSD are major goals for Tesla - and assuming they are right that AP2+ vehicles with the new HW3 processor can support FSD - those improvements will come from OTA software updates. Other manufacturers will likely require purchase of new vehicles to gain additional AP/FSD features.

While arcade games/video streaming can only be used while parked now - when Tesla receives approval for FSD, those features will be available while the vehicle is in motion. If/when Tesla receives approval for FSD - they'll be ready to immediately provide a range of entertainment options for passengers.

Just like robg's experience - I briefly experienced "feature" letdown when I transitioned from my Lexus LS to our first 2012 S P85, that was missing some of the luxury features provided in Lexus vehicles. But I quickly got over that - because those features really weren't that important compared to driving the S P85... And when it came to replace the S P85, I never even considered buying luxury ICEs with more features - and went for an S 100D with more range and AP2.

Compared to other comparably priced vehicles, S/X are still doing well in sales - the entire auto market is slumping, and only the Model 3 is seeing major growth. Even if Tesla invested in an S/X refresh, it probably wouldn't have much impact on sales - and it's better for Tesla to focus those resources on getting Y, pickup and semi to market.

 

[willw64]

The biggest refresh, was making ludicrous a standard option with the performance model. Yeah, I wish there were a few things here and there that would be updated, especially better smart phone integration, but the performance s is given speed, range, and overall comfort is a joy to drive.

 

[rooter]

Even if Tesla invested in an S/X refresh, it probably wouldn't have much impact on sales - and it's better for Tesla to focus those resources on getting Y, pickup and semi to market.

When the semi was announced... it just seemed like Too Much. SpaceX, Boring Company, flame thrower, pickup, genetics... come on.

I mean, aim high, but there are inherent limits. Something's gotta give.

 

[Wol747]

It may be naive of me, and certainly my ignorance will show (I am taking delivery of my first Model S next month), but I hark back to Musk's business objective. Which is:
1 Build a car that only a few can and will afford in order to develop the technology. (Roadster)
2 Build a high-cost car that is sold in quantity to get an even greater handle on the technology (Model S, X)
3 Using the knowledge gained from the above produce in volume a reasonably priced EV that will further the progress towards a low carbon economy.
I can certainly relate to all this - if not I would not be "investing" five times the price I normally would pay for my transport!
The way the Model S has evolved has to be the future. It makes little sense to me to change a car's appearance every year or two: constant small improvements are much more sustainable if you start off with something of a timeless design. Unless, of course, you have to show off the latest look every few months.
I do think the handling of incidentals such as the entertainment systems are probably better - safer - if the functions are accessed by knobs/joystick knobs - for one thing you can put your hand on them by feel, and they must be less sensitive to the hand being juddered around on bumpy surfaces. But I'll let you know!