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Model S Performance vs BMW M5

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You'd probably have the car floored for at least 1 minute of the 1:40-51? lap. which is pulling 310 kW and giving something like a 15-18 mile range (at a full range charge)
assuming a 300 mile range at 15.58 kW - um, if my math is proper

Naa.. too many turns to keep it floored the whole time.. mostly you are modulating your speed to keep from spinning out or hitting a wall. There is a long back straight made up of two segments with a curving turn in the middle that you can basically hit at speed and another straightaway at the finish line. On both you should get up well over 100, but your average speed is much lower.
 
You'd think that at some point they'd mention that the car failed to complete a lap.

I never saw any mention of the Roadster featuring a "limp mode" after a single lap of a track on a cool day before I watched it myself at Thunderhill on 4/10/09. Tesla was there with a couple of cars. One stock. One with a tuned suspension. I was surprised. I thought someone would have mentioned this in a review. I had seen every report comparing the Roadster to Porsches and other cars and had not considered cooling to be an issue. So I am not sure that a lack of reports from Motojournos is an indication of the lack of an issue.

High Plains Raceway? What is the altitude? Definitely a good place to run against ICE cars struggling to catch a breath. :biggrin:
 
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CapO: I think you're right about the capping of performance as predicted range drops below 30 miles!

Then this calls for one more addition to the list of user configurable options: turning off this "get you home when running low" feature.

The other racing features being: ability to turn off regen completely and manually setting cooling to full, with cooling flaps fully open from the start of driving/racing.
 
I'll go out on a limb and propose another possibility pulled directly from my nether regions. It's known (or assumed) that Model S will cut power when it encounters heat issues, just like the Roadster. But it has been reported by Cinergi that the Model S will cut power output in the way described when its predicted range gets down to ~30 miles.

Under track conditions ~100 ideal miles might have briefly dipped under this limit as the car looked at actual usage and predicted that it could only make it ~30 miles under those conditions, causing it to cut power. Of course, once you stop pushing it the predicted range starts moving back up to the ideal range and suddenly you get your performance back until you try pushing again.
I don't know why I didn't think of this before I read CapitalistOppressors excellent recap:

I think it probably doesn't count range that strictly. I believe it rather goes into power limit mode due to low voltage. When you pull lots of current from a battery, you will see progressively larger voltage dips as it drains. I bet the car limits power the first instant it sees the voltage briefly dip below some threshold. Resting voltage can be much higher, but the battery becomes "softer" as it depletes.

This has happened with every battery I have drained aggressively, from RC cars and planes to my NiCd EV. Li-ion, NiMH, NiCd and lead acid all behave much the same, and it's very pronounced in my EV. When it's down to 30% and I floor it, I can see the headlights dim slightly and hear the ventilator fan slow down a little. NiCds tolerate this reasonably well (should be avoided, I never do it anymore), lead really dislikes it and li-ion needs active protection to prevent that it ever happens.

Try again with a full charge, I'm about 90% sure this is what happened.

If this is the reason, then I think the car will perform at least down to 50% SoC. Tesla might also be able to tune the behaviour with a software update. It would be possible to limit power in such a way that voltage stays a little above the threshold, instead of waiting for it to exceed it and then cut power by 50%.
 
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Could be premature range extension, but then you'd have to assume that the Laguna 1:51 car had this stuff disabled, right? Or maybe it was topped off before the fast lap. If so, a requirement to have SOC very high to avoid limp mode in one or two laps essentially says you can't realistically do a fun track dy with the car at the limit.

Also, 1:51 implies plenty of time at full throttle. Front straight, turn 6?, climbing up to corkscrew, etc. Prob get over 100 mph four times a lap.

It would be great if CapO is right, because this software glitch could be fixed without impact on wear and tear (in contrast to raising thermal envelope limits, which Tesla may be loath to do without canceling warranty).
 
I don't know why I didn't think of this before I read CapitalistOppressors excellent recap:

I think it probably doesn't count range that strictly. I believe it rather goes into power limit mode due to low voltage. When you pull lots of current from a battery, you will see progressively larger voltage dips as it drains. I bet the car limits power the first instant it sees the voltage briefly dip below some threshold. Resting voltage can be much higher, but the battery becomes "softer" as it depletes.

This has happened with every battery I have drained aggressively, from RC cars and planes to my NiCd EV. Li-ion, NiMH, NiCd and lead acid all behave much the same, and it's very pronounced in my EV. When it's down to 30% and I floor it, I can see the headlights dim slightly and hear the ventilator fan slow down a little. NiCds tolerate this reasonably well (should be avoided, I never do it anymore), lead really dislikes it and li-ion needs active protection to prevent that it ever happens.

Try again with a full charge, I'm about 90% sure this is what happened.

If this is the reason, then I think the car will perform at least down to 50% SoC. Tesla might also be able to tune the behaviour with a software update. It would be possible to limit power in such a way that voltage stays a little above the threshold, instead of waiting for it to exceed it and then cut power by 50%.

I wont disagree with you, because I don't know that much about how batteries operate on an electric car (or in general for that matter). My understanding is that Li-ion tends to maintain constant performance until it reaches a very low SOC, at which point performance falls off a cliff. But that understanding is based on information I got at Home Depot when researching power tools :)

However, I am comfortable in troubleshooting complex issues with less than adequate information. That's how I make money after all.

So here's the data -

Cinergi reports that power was cut when he had ~30 miles of range. His photo shows 27 miles of projected, and 31 rated (I assume there was a slight delay between the time that Cinergi noticed the cutoff and when he was able to take the photo in a moving car. Call it a 0.1 second delay before his bionic video implants kicked in and captured the image). I've heard that Rated miles nowadays is starting out at ~245 with 100% SOC, which means this started when MSP hit ~13% SOC.

Cottonwood (like any normal non-bionic human) didn't take a photo of his dash when power cut out. But he was clear that he only had ~100 Rated miles when he started this testing. That means that the "problem" started for him when he had ~41% SOC, but he was also putting much more load on the car.

The key (to me at least), is that Cottonwood didn't have the problem every time he pushed the car's limits. He would complete the majority of a lap under load, and then performance would cut out. After a time at slower speeds he would try again, and again was able to push hard for a period of time before performance was cut.

Given the totality of the information, I feel it points to Tesla having implemented a hard cap at ~30 miles projected range to reduce power output and help folks get home in our electric infrastructure deprived world.

The hypothesis presumes that Cottonwood's Projected miles was hovering right at the ~30 mile point, while his Rated miles were ~100 as he reported. Under track conditions I think that makes sense.

Accelerate hard and the computer drives Projected miles down below the cap and cuts performance. Because there is such a wide divergance between Projected and Rated, slower speeds pull the Projected numbers upwards with a very high delta which rapidly puts the car above the cap again. Rinse, repeat, time to change the software.

The problem that I see (potentially due to ignorance?) with software looking at voltage levels as opposed to a simple range cap, is that Cinergi was capped at 13% SOC while Cottonwood was capped while at ~41%. And Cottonwood wasn't capped every time he pushed the car hard, but rather had to push hard for a period of time before hitting what appears to be an arbitrary cap that disappears on its own minutes later, allowing you to push hard again. I'd think that if voltage at a given SOC is a given, then once you reach that point you wouldn't have arbitrary periods of high performance and low performance.

I suppose I have had some experience with batteries getting a bit of a power boost from being allowed to rest for a minute (re Home Depot). But that was mostly with NiCAD batteries. One of the things I like about my Li-ion tools is they don't seem to do that. A straight range cap just seems to fit better to me because Tesla has an immediate incentive to discover that problem (getting low on range on an EV can be dangerous) and implementing a simple "fix" that would explain all of the observed behavior. Voltage looks to me like an engineering solution to an engineering problem that we aren't certain exists. So I'll put my money on Occams Razor.

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Could be premature range extension, but then you'd have to assume that the Laguna 1:51 car had this stuff disabled, right? Or maybe it was topped off before the fast lap. If so, a requirement to have SOC very high to avoid limp mode in one or two laps essentially says you can't realistically do a fun track dy with the car at the limit.

Also, 1:51 implies plenty of time at full throttle. Front straight, turn 6?, climbing up to corkscrew, etc. Prob get over 100 mph four times a lap.

It would be great if CapO is right, because this software glitch could be fixed without impact on wear and tear (in contrast to raising thermal envelope limits, which Tesla may be loath to do without canceling warranty).

Actually, my hypothesis is that there simply isn't a problem until you get below ~30 miles of projected range. If you start off topped off you can go quite awhile before your projected range falls that far. The ReFuel time trials were 1 lap, but my recollection of the ReFuel videos is that they also had other events where the cars were all going head to head and completing multiple laps. In several videos (which seemed to last ~15 minutes or more) it was apparent that the Model S was lapping many of the competitors who were shooting video, which indicates it was operating at high performance for a fair number of laps.
 
CapO: If you are right, that would be pretty dumb mistake from a company that is pretty smart/good/careful. Actually it would be a dumb design, a dumb implementation of algorithm and a dumb/unhelpful UI presentation. Seems unlikely--- but I agree that what you say is internally consistent and, therefore, possible.

Finally, the 160kW mode is not exactly a "emergency range extension" mode, is it? I would think it would implement a MUCH more severe limit on max amps and max speed to avoid being stranded (a la the Leaf and Volt). What does the Roadster do when it is about to run completely out of juice?
 
CapitalistOppressor:

Compared to other chemistries, li-ion stays stiffer for longer, that's true. However, if you compare discharge curves at e.g. 1C and 5C, you will see that the higher load curve is steeper. Now if you were to discharge at a leasurely 1C for a while, and then floor it and drain 5C, voltage will drop down to the 5C curve immediately (and bounce back up if you slow down again).

I actually have an RC plane whose motor controller features undervoltage protection. If I run the motor at full power until it cuts due to undervoltage, I can pull the throttle stick all the way back and then forwards to switch on again. As long as I'm careful not to apply too much power, I can then use the motor during landing. A quick blip to full power will cut the motor again.

The described behavior of cinergi's car limiting power at 13% and Cottonwood's at 41% on the track is exactly the behaviour I would expect, it fits beautifully.

Li-ion batteries do not show the same characteristic as NiCd when being drained completely, and then recovering after a minute of rest. This is simply because the electronics will never let you drain it that low. But I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that you will get fewer watt-hours out of the battery during continuous heavy work than at a light load. If the battery cuts during heavy work, you might be able to restart and continue draining it at a lower rate for a while longer, that depends on how the protection circuitry has been programmed.

chrisn:

The problem isn't that it's about to run out of juice. It can have quite a bit of kWhs left, but still hit the voltage limit.

Resting voltage is always higher than working voltage, that is, battery voltage will always drop when it delivers power. Resting voltage falls as the battery drains. Voltage under load will drop more the higher the load is. Take any battery, connect a voltmeter, then connect a load and watch voltage drop. Disconnect the load, and voltage bounces back up. Double the load and watch voltage drop lower than before, and rise back up to the resting voltage when you disconnect.

A li-ion battery must never ever drop below 3.0V per cell, even during a transient, as this would destroy the battery. The actual voltage threshold varies a little with different electrode materials and such, but as far as I know all of them display this characteristic. Everything from mobile phones and laptops to RC helicopters and Model S has protection circuitry installed that monitors voltage and disconnects whenever it drops below 3.0V per cell. Tesla is very likely using a higer cutoff limit than that to make sure there is some charge left even when the car says it's discharged and shuts down completely.

With a full charge, the battery is said to be "stiff" - i.e. assume for example nominal voltage is 500, max rated amps is 500. This example battery would have 135 cells in series, so the fully charged resting voltage would be around 550 V and the 3.0 volt cut off limit is 405V. At 95% charge, actual voltage might drop from 545 to 490 with a load of 500A. The same battery at 30% will have a much higher voltage drop at 500A, say for example from 520 to 410V. Now the battery is "softer".

The point is that the protection circuitry will trigger during a transient even though the resting voltage is well above the trigger point and there are lots of miles left.
 
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CapitalistOppressor:

Compared to other chemistries, li-ion stays stiffer for longer, that's true. However, if you compare discharge curves at e.g. 1C and 5C, you will see that the higher load curve is steeper. Now if you were to discharge at a leasurely 1C for a while, and then floor it and drain 5C, voltage will drop down to the 5C curve immediately (and bounce back up if you slow down again).

I actually have an RC plane whose motor controller features undervoltage protection. If I run the motor at full power until it cuts due to undervoltage, I can pull the throttle stick all the way back and then forwards to switch on again. As long as I'm careful not to apply too much power, I can then use the motor during landing. A quick blip to full power will cut the motor again.

The described behavior of cinergi's car limiting power at 13% and Cottonwood's at 41% on the track is exactly the behaviour I would expect, it fits beautifully.

Li-ion batteries do not show the same characteristic as NiCd when being drained completely, and then recovering after a minute of rest. This is simply because the electronics will never let you drain it that low. But I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that you will get fewer watt-hours out of the battery during continuous heavy work than at a light load. If the battery cuts during heavy work, you might be able to restart and continue draining it at a lower rate for a while longer, that depends on how the protection circuitry has been programmed.

chrisn:

The problem isn't that it's about to run out of juice. It can have quite a bit of kWhs left, but still hit the voltage limit.

Resting voltage is always higher than working voltage, that is, battery voltage will always drop when it delivers power. Resting voltage falls as the battery drains. Voltage under load will drop more the higher the load is. Take any battery, connect a voltmeter, then connect a load and watch voltage drop. Disconnect the load, and voltage bounces back up. Double the load and watch voltage drop lower than before, and rise back up to the resting voltage when you disconnect.

A li-ion battery must never ever drop below 3.0V per cell, even during a transient, as this would destroy the battery. The actual voltage threshold varies a little with different electrode materials and such, but as far as I know all of them display this characteristic. Everything from mobile phones and laptops to RC helicopters and Model S has protection circuitry installed that monitors voltage and disconnects whenever it drops below 3.0V per cell. Tesla is very likely using a higer cutoff limit than that to make sure there is some charge left even when the car says it's discharged and shuts down completely.

With a full charge, the battery is said to be "stiff" - i.e. assume for example nominal voltage is 500, max rated amps is 500. This example battery would have 135 cells in series, so the fully charged resting voltage would be around 550 V and the 3.0 volt cut off limit is 405V. At 95% charge, actual voltage drops from 545 to 490 when you pull 500A. The same battery at 30% will show a much higher voltage drop at 500A, say for example from 520 to 410V. Now the battery is "softer".

The point is that the protection circuitry will trigger during a transient even though the resting voltage is well above the trigger point and there are lots of miles left.


I'll take your word for it. Frankly, I am far more comfortable discussing quantum mechanics or biology, than I am with a technical discussion of batteries :)

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CapO: If you are right, that would be pretty dumb mistake from a company that is pretty smart/good/careful. Actually it would be a dumb design, a dumb implementation of algorithm and a dumb/unhelpful UI presentation. Seems unlikely--- but I agree that what you say is internally consistent and, therefore, possible.

Finally, the 160kW mode is not exactly a "emergency range extension" mode, is it? I would think it would implement a MUCH more severe limit on max amps and max speed to avoid being stranded (a la the Leaf and Volt). What does the Roadster do when it is about to run completely out of juice?

It's possible that performance is cut further when you get really, really low. I don't feel like searching out the link, but Motortrend (or another reviewer) mentioned something about limitations in performance when the remaining charge got down into the low single digits. I got the impression that they were really speed limited those last few miles.

But 160kWh is still a 50% drop in available power output. If everything scales (which I also don't feel like figuring out now) that leaves MSP with something like 200hp equivalent, which still isn't anything to sneeze at even on a large car. Like a Ford Taurus basically. So ya, I'd expect a further drop if you get into a really deep discharge situation. It would help extend your range by a few miles, and I presume it would also limit the strain being placed on the battery by operating under those conditions.

Edit:

Forgot to post this yesterday when it came out -

2013 BMW M5 Manual First Test - Motor Trend


Bottom line, when looking at all the data the M5 with the manual transmission is a fair bit slower than MSP under almost any conditions (outside of very high, 110+mph speeds), while the DCT is a tick faster than MSP at speeds of less than 70mph. Between 70 and 90mph M5 DCT is a few ticks faster. 90-100mph DCT starts to really pull away and above 100mph there isn't much reason to offer a comparison anymore.

I think I saw discussion somewhere about passing performance of M5 vs MSP. Anyone claiming that M5 has an advantage certainly has a case to make. M5 (with DCT) pulls from 60-90 in 3.3 seconds vs 3.7 for MSP. However, that data is based on continuous acceleration from a controlled launch at zero. In a rolling acceleration scenerio (which a sudden passing move is) I would expect that the mechanical delays before M5 starts applying maximum torque are in excess of 4 tenths of a second. By that time MSP already has a lead in both distance and speed, and it takes additional time to match speed and more yet to actually close the distance.
 
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I think I saw discussion somewhere about passing performance of M5 vs MSP. Anyone claiming that M5 has an advantage certainly has a case to make. M5 (with DCT) pulls from 60-90 in 3.3 seconds vs 3.7 for MSP. However, that data is based on continuous acceleration from a controlled launch at zero. In a rolling acceleration scenerio (which a sudden passing move is) I would expect that the mechanical delays before M5 starts applying maximum torque are in excess of 4 tenths of a second. By that time MSP already has a lead in both distance and speed, and it takes additional time to match speed and more yet to actually close the distance.

And you would need to be in 2nd? gear at 60mph in the m5 (not likely) with a shift to third to hit the 90 mph - correct me if I'm wrong
 
And you would need to be in 2nd? gear at 60mph in the m5 (not likely) with a shift to third to hit the 90 mph - correct me if I'm wrong

You just floor it and it kicks down to lowest gear not too close to redline. It is smart. It takes a lot less than 0.4 seconds to shift. Once again, we need to test to be sure, but my money on the M5 for this test. I'll bet dinner on it if anyone is willing to play.

As for gearing, I assume the computer would drop you into 3rd and do the pull in that gear. I'll test it if I remember.
 
CapO: If you are right, that would be pretty dumb mistake from a company that is pretty smart/good/careful. Actually it would be a dumb design, a dumb implementation of algorithm and a dumb/unhelpful UI presentation. Seems unlikely--- but I agree that what you say is internally consistent and, therefore, possible.

Finally, the 160kW mode is not exactly a "emergency range extension" mode, is it? I would think it would implement a MUCH more severe limit on max amps and max speed to avoid being stranded (a la the Leaf and Volt). What does the Roadster do when it is about to run completely out of juice?

The Roadster will reduce power when only 20 miles of Ideal range is left, so what CapitalistOppressor says is actually quite plausible (the detail is that ideal range only varies with actual SOC and not with driving conditions; so 20 miles corresponds to ~8% SOC assuming 240 miles Ideal when full). Here's a thread that tells how to "trick" the computer to override it.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...ower-Limit-quot-to-still-give-you-max-Power-)

The Roadster also has a "Range" mode that is reduced power, but I believe the Model S version allows you to use full power in that mode.

I think in both cases the "reduced power" mode has 50% the max power. It's likely designed to protect the battery (making it so you can only draw half power), not necessarily to extend your range.

The easiest way to test this empirically is just to drive the car to under 20-30 miles of range left under normal conditions (to eliminate possibility of overheating) and see if power is reduced.
 
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I think that the firmware reigning [reining] in the car as reported by Cinergi (which I guess *IS* a design issue, albiet [albeit] software related), or a simple mechanical malfunction in the cooling system are the most likely possibilities in the absense [absence] of additional data.
...
Definitely, all of which tells me that the assumptions underlying the software do not match the needs of the track, atall, atall. The most parsimonious change I can think of would be an option to turn off range maximization for just such special situations and uses.
 
Definitely, all of which tells me that the assumptions underlying the software do not match the needs of the track, atall, atall. The most parsimonious change I can think of would be an option to turn off range maximization for just such special situations and uses.

Agreed! A racing option with NO regen and 100% battery cooling all the time with flaps fully open from the get-go.
 
CapitalistOppressor:

Compared to other chemistries, li-ion stays stiffer for longer, that's true. However, if you compare discharge curves at e.g. 1C and 5C, you will see that the higher load curve is steeper. Now if you were to discharge at a leisurely 1C for a while, and then floor it and drain 5C, voltage will drop down to the 5C curve immediately (and bounce back up if you slow down again).

<snip>

The point is that the protection circuitry will trigger during a transient even though the resting voltage is well above the trigger point and there are lots of miles left.

An additional point of complication is the instantaneous cell balance value or ratio - if one battery in a series pack has a lower chemical capacity (irrespective of voltage) or charge (irrespective of chemistry) to all the others, that cell will be the weakest link, and will not only drag down the stack voltage, but it will respond with a larger voltage drop than all the others at heavy load (less 'stiff' response). Tesla works hard to equalize/balance the stack, but one unbalanced cell-set can make things even worse that the previous description, all of which was valid even with identical cells and charge states.

Neat stuff...
 
An additional point of complication is the instantaneous cell balance value or ratio - if one battery in a series pack has a lower chemical capacity (irrespective of voltage) or charge (irrespective of chemistry) to all the others, that cell will be the weakest link, and will not only drag down the stack voltage, but it will respond with a larger voltage drop than all the others at heavy load (less 'stiff' response). Tesla works hard to equalize/balance the stack, but one unbalanced cell-set can make things even worse that the previous description, all of which was valid even with identical cells and charge states.

Neat stuff...

True. I think Tesla monitors the pack very, very closely. If not at the cell level, then at least at small cell groups, so that they can reduce power to protect the weakest cells. This is not true of the NiCd Think - the weakest cells that empty first can at high load and low SoC actually be forced into reversed cell voltage. NiCd tolerates abuse very well, but even they don't like that. The consequence is that driving hard at low SoC tends to damage the weakest cells more and more until they fail. As I said, I believe Tesla prevents this, but an unbalanced pack will very likely (and hopefully!) go into protection mode earlier.

For racing, you want a full and balanced battery.

Hypothesis 1: MSP limits power to conserve energy (i.e. miles left) when driven hard on a race track at about 30% SoC, because it calculates that miles left at the current extreme power consumption are less than 20-30 or so.

Falsification experiment: Drive nicely until miles left is about 100. Then drive as hard as possible on a track until the car limits power, and check projected range. If projected range is higher than 20-30 miles now, that would indicate that the car did not limit power to conserve range.

Hypothesis 2: At about 30% SoC and below, the MSP will fairly quickly hit the low voltage threshold on a race track and limit power.

Falsification experiment: Start at 30% SoC and drive hard, but not all out. You want to stay below about 160 kW, but drive as hard as possible within that constraint. Keep going until the car limits power. This will consume much, much more power than ordinary driving, but will not trigger the low voltage protection as easily as driving flat out. If the car quickly limits power even when we avoid the worst voltage dips, that would indicate that the hypothesis is false. If you can keep going until SoC is really low, that would indicate that the hypothesis might be correct.
 
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True. I think Tesla monitors the pack very, very closely. If not at the cell level, then at least at small cell groups, so that they can reduce power to protect the weakest cells. This is not true of the NiCd Think - the weakest cells that empty first can at high load and low SoC actually be forced into reversed cell voltage. NiCd tolerates abuse very well, but even they don't like that. The consequence is that driving hard at low SoC tends to damage the weakest cells more and more until they fail. As I said, I believe Tesla prevents this, but an unbalanced pack will very likely (and hopefully!) go into protection mode earlier.

For racing, you want a full and balanced battery.

Hypothesis 1: MSP limits power to conserve energy (i.e. miles left) when driven hard on a race track at about 30% SoC, because it calculates that miles left at the current extreme power consumption are less than 20-30 or so.
<snip>
.... If you can keep going until SoC is really low, that would indicate that the hypothesis might be correct.

I would definitely add ambient temperature to the mix, if you create an experiment. If you could magically monitor the pack temp, and so therefore see the delta, then you'd maybe know if a throttling was caused by thermals rather than voltage.

Interesting how this equates to microprocessor performance (boosting), and thermal and power supply limits.