Model S Plaid Brakes Are Terrible!

[Trompazo]

A vehicle's kinetic energy, during deceleration, is transformed into "heat" (thermal energy), without regard to its design, rotor/pad size, efficiency.

Therefore a larger (rotor/pad) & better designed (more efficient) brake system would have a larger thermal capacity (heat sink) and can "absorb" more heat, and "dissipate" heat faster so this vehicle can run at a lower braking temperature vs. the one running with a smaller brake and less efficient system at higher temperature which can quickly lead to brake failure.

For the same kinetic energy (1/2MV^2) ie same vehicle mass and speed; Brake (size & system) = Braking temperature.

This is correct. Many people will stay that stopping distances is completely related to tires. And that is true, until the brakes overheat.

Brakes are not going to improve your stopping distance, but a massively heavy car like this which is under braked, it will get massive brake fade with hard use.

In my model 3 performance, I have never had issues with brakes during autocross, but in the summer I took the wife and kids on vacation with lots of luggage through the mountains and had a few times where the brakes faded horribly.

 

[Aggmeister2010]

The iBooster doesn't use vacuum at all, so it isn't running out of that. It uses an electric motor to apply break pressure, so I don't think your problem is the iBooster.

Are you sure the message doesn't say something about break temperature?

Good to know. But yes, positive that it wasn't about temperature. I had been on the highway at 70 mph uninterrupted for at least 30 minutes prior.

 

[tm1v2]

This is correct. Many people will stay that stopping distances is completely related to tires. And that is true, until the brakes overheat.

Brakes are not going to improve your stopping distance, but a massively heavy car like this which is under braked, it will get massive brake fade with hard use.

In my model 3 performance, I have never had issues with brakes during autocross, but in the summer I took the wife and kids on vacation with lots of luggage through the mountains and had a few times where the brakes faded horribly.

Have you tried any aftermarket street pads since then that you'd recommend? Or anti-recommend if they were worse than the OE pads?

(Mods feel free to fork this to a new thread in the Model 3 section...)

 

[tm1v2]

I had the performance 3 before track mode, it was awful. I was actually going to sell the car until the trackmode was released.
I have the Plaid on order and I promise you it will not touch a track until trackmode SW is available.

Has Tesla said anything about releasing a Track Mode for the new S? I know they've done track testing that clearly looked like they dialed down the nannies, but to me that doesn't automatically mean they'll ever release it to customers. I sure hope they do though!

 

[Duke846]

Back in 2004/2005, I used a CG-Lock and it worked really well until I got bucket seats and a harness.

Gear: CG-Lock Performance Seatbelt Add-On - Winding Road Magazine

Gear: CG-Lock Performance Seatbelt Add-On - Winding Road Magazine

www.windingroad.com

I think CG Lock is discontinued but you might be able to find something similar.

I have a model 3 performance. In the EVX class.

I have a Autocrossed it for 2 years. I have multiple SCCA Champ tour and Pro Solo Trophies in other cars.

With MPP coilovers, front and rear camber arms, sways, 18x10.5" wheels and 285 RE71r.

I have accidentally ran it in normal mode multiple times, and times are essentially the same. I have tried many different settings with track mode, and for auto cross, 50:50 still turns out to be the fastest. I have tried Stability from -10 to -2, and actually like -3 to -2.

Summary is, with appropriate tires, camber, and suspension, I do not feel the track mode is that important. But tires, camber, and roll stiffness are the key. I ran it once in Stock form with the stock tires and it felt horrible.

My Plaid will be here next week. First thing will be to work on the brakes. They need to be able to handle the heat better, which will need bigger rotors. I am not a big fan of carbon rotors, but that is mainly for track use because with lots of heat they do wear and are expensive to replace. However, for the plaid, the may be a good option for daily use and maybe the odd track day.

Trust me you won’t do anything till we get SW for track mode.
Imagine additional 500 hp to your performance model 3 without being able to rotate it.
The brakes are getting killed!!!!!!
you will ruin carbon brakes the first track day bad.

This guy sells the upgrades to the brakes.

 

[Trompazo]

Trust me you won’t do anything till we get SW for track mode.
Imagine additional 500 hp to your performance model 3 without being able to rotate it.
The brakes are getting killed!!!!!!
you will ruin carbon brakes the first track day bad.

This guy sells the upgrades to the brakes.

The brakes on this car getting killed. But believing that track mode is going to solve this problem is a fallacy. Look at the size of the calipers compared to the weight of the car and compare this to other performance occurs. They are not even in the realm of what they need to be.

The Unplugged Randy Probst car that they ran Pikes Peak in and Laguna Seca has:

1. massive aero
2. CF front brakes and looks to have rear calipers that are different and don't use the integrated parking brake.
3. Front upper control arms (in development and should be out soon for the public)
4. Big rear sway bar (available now)
5. Bilstein modified dampers (in development and should be out soon for the public).

I guess they could have modified the computer, but I discussed this with Eric from unplugged and there is no mention of that.

Stability control is only going to come in based on what the suspension is doing. Camber, roll stiffness, and appropriate tires solve that issue.

I have the lap record for a car with doors with a highly modified C6 Z06 at one track, using Hooser A7 tires, suspension, aero, Brembos etc. I left full stability control on, didn't even need track mode as with Hoosier and proper suspension/aero, the car just stuck.

 

[Duke846]

The brakes on this car getting killed. But believing that track mode is going to solve this problem is a fallacy. Look at the size of the calipers compared to the weight of the car and compare this to other performance occurs. They are not even in the realm of what they need to be.

The Unplugged Randy Probst car that they ran Pikes Peak in and Laguna Seca has:

1. massive aero
2. CF front brakes and looks to have rear calipers that are different and don't use the integrated parking brake.
3. Front upper control arms (in development and should be out soon for the public)
4. Big rear sway bar (available now)
5. Bilstein modified dampers (in development and should be out soon for the public).

I guess they could have modified the computer, but I discussed this with Eric from unplugged and there is no mention of that.

Stability control is only going to come in based on what the suspension is doing. Camber, roll stiffness, and appropriate tires solve that issue.

I have the lap record for a car with doors with a highly modified C6 Z06 at one track, using Hooser A7 tires, suspension, aero, Brembos etc. I left full stability control on, didn't even need track mode as with Hoosier and proper suspension/aero, the car just stuck.

You have zero clue what your talk about.
respond once you have tracked the Plaid.

 

[lolachampcar]

Popcorn at the ready....

This is going to get good fast

 

[Trompazo]

You have zero clue what your talk about.
respond once you have tracked the Plaid.

Yes, I have zero clue. But you have not tracked a Plaid because it has not arrived yet, but you know it all.

I would never track a heavy sedan like this, unless it was prepped. First it would need Brakes, front control arms, and much wider front wheels and tires.

The Icon video that just came out where Randy Probst lapped a stock Plaid, M5 Competition and Caddy CT5-V (and had the fastest lap ever recorded at Willow Spings in a 4 door car in the Plaid), shows that it OK on the track as the M5 Comp is no slouch. But I suspect it can't do many laps despite getting a good time in, because of the brakes.

Probst got a 1:27.78 which is less than 0.5 from a 991.1 GT3, a car that have and have tracked many times. And also less than 0.5 from a Mclaren 570S. The Plaid doing that is stock trim is impressive for its weight.

Willow Springs lap times - FastestLaps.com

List of fastest lap times for Willow Springs. Updated March 2024.

fastestlaps.com

But I have zero clue about anything.

 

[Trompazo]

I agree it's underbraked. But out of the box it's not a horrible car.

 

[Duke846]

Popcorn at the ready....

This is going to get good fast

Maybe a track mode????
Nah they all do this.

 

[Duke846]

That would be odd if the video itself says no track mode, no?

Not really. They are the primary company developing aftermarket performance parts for Tesla’s.

 

[tm1v2]

That would be odd if the video itself says no track mode, no?

It doesn't have to be Track Mode. They probably told the truth, as in, they didn't use anything called Track Mode on screen.

That doesn't mean they were using 100% normal traction and stability control either.

That's just my guess.

 

[Duke846]

It doesn't have to be Track Mode. They probably told the truth, as in, they didn't use anything called Track Mode on screen.

That doesn't mean they were using 100% normal traction and stability control either.

That's just my guess.

I they were probably using dark helmet not playing with his dolls mode

 

[Duke846]

Popcorn at the ready....

This is going to get good fast

How’s that popcorn? Little salty?

Oh no that’s totally stock stability control

 

[Mash]

I had the performance 3 before track mode, it was awful. I was actually going to sell the car until the trackmode was released.
I have the Plaid on order and I promise you it will not touch a track until trackmode SW is available.

Without track mode car doesn't want to turn, that's true.

 

[lolachampcar]

How’s that popcorn? Little salty?

Oh no that’s totally stock stability control

Exactly as I expected.

and do not drag me into your video bench racing on the internet saga. I'm simply watching from the sidelines and made a completely benign observation about the Plaid's brakes lacking feel in straight line perfromance. This observation was from personal experience with my own car and in comparison to my previous P90DL. When my judgement was questioned, I provided some background.

So please return to explaining everything for all of us. I'll hit the micro on the next batch.

 

[Stef1808]

Europe cars delayed till 2023 apparently but without track mode I’m not that interested in taking it anyway. Hopefully they will give it proper slip angles without being overly cautious because of the yoke. In fact the idea of having low/off tc and not a proper wheel makes me think...

 

[lolachampcar]

I'm curious if MS is using the calipers as much as some think. The stability control on my Plaid is significantly different from that of an ICE I have that uses the brakes. The Plaid feels like Tesla is simply limiting power on yaw. This is especially true on corner exit. Higher speed neutral throttle is met with a very little bit of torque steer and front end push. It feels like Tesla is regulating power to prevent a situation as opposed to arresting a corner to react to one. If I were more curious, I suspect CAN data would have a lot of these answers as the folks that play with this stuff have identified all three motor torques and related high speed data messages.

 

[Trompazo]

I'm curious if MS is using the calipers as much as some think. The stability control on my Plaid is significantly different from that of an ICE I have that uses the brakes. The Plaid feels like Tesla is simply limiting power on yaw. This is especially true on corner exit. Higher speed neutral throttle is met with a very little bit of torque steer and front end push. It feels like Tesla is regulating power to prevent a situation as opposed to arresting a corner to react to one. If I were more curious, I suspect CAN data would have a lot of these answers as the folks that play with this stuff have identified all three motor torques and related high speed data messages.

Disconnecting the wheel speed sensors could test for that, but it would loose ABS.