Model S Plaid Brakes Are Terrible!

[Duke846]

I have a model 3 performance. In the EVX class.

I have a Autocrossed it for 2 years. I have multiple SCCA Champ tour and Pro Solo Trophies in other cars.

With MPP coilovers, front and rear camber arms, sways, 18x10.5" wheels and 285 RE71r.

I have accidentally ran it in normal mode multiple times, and times are essentially the same. I have tried many different settings with track mode, and for auto cross, 50:50 still turns out to be the fastest. I have tried Stability from -10 to -2, and actually like -3 to -2.

Summary is, with appropriate tires, camber, and suspension, I do not feel the track mode is that important. But tires, camber, and roll stiffness are the key. I ran it once in Stock form with the stock tires and it felt horrible.

My Plaid will be here next week. First thing will be to work on the brakes. They need to be able to handle the heat better, which will need bigger rotors. I am not a big fan of carbon rotors, but that is mainly for track use because with lots of heat they do wear and are expensive to replace. However, for the plaid, the may be a good option for daily use and maybe the odd track day.

The brakes on this car getting killed. But believing that track mode is going to solve this problem is a fallacy. Look at the size of the calipers compared to the weight of the car and compare this to other performance occurs. They are not even in the realm of what they need to be.

The Unplugged Randy Probst car that they ran Pikes Peak in and Laguna Seca has:

1. massive aero
2. CF front brakes and looks to have rear calipers that are different and don't use the integrated parking brake.
3. Front upper control arms (in development and should be out soon for the public)
4. Big rear sway bar (available now)
5. Bilstein modified dampers (in development and should be out soon for the public).

I guess they could have modified the computer, but I discussed this with Eric from unplugged and there is no mention of that.

Stability control is only going to come in based on what the suspension is doing. Camber, roll stiffness, and appropriate tires solve that issue.

I have the lap record for a car with doors with a highly modified C6 Z06 at one track, using Hooser A7 tires, suspension, aero, Brembos etc. I left full stability control on, didn't even need track mode as with Hoosier and proper suspension/aero, the car just stuck.

Again, what more do you need to see?

 

[PeteZed]

My experience on the road, if aggressively slowing from highway speeds for say a few off ramps, causes far more brake fade than I feel comfortable with. As such, I'm going in a straight line and then braking. Just don't see how a software fix / track mode would help. Best I can tell, given all the responses, this is a Physics problem. 5000 lbs coming to a stop or slowing causes A lot of heat. The current brakes can not manage the heat and fade.

No chance I'd take this heavy beast to the track. I think the stock brakes would fail and sheer mass would be tough to tame.

OK. Maybe for a few laps. But that's it

 

[ninefiveone]

My experience on the road, if aggressively slowing from highway speeds for say a few off ramps, causes far more brake fade than I feel comfortable with. As such, I'm going in a straight line and then braking. Just don't see how a software fix / track mode would help. Best I can tell, given all the responses, this is a Physics problem. 5000 lbs coming to a stop or slowing causes A lot of heat. The current brakes can not manage the heat and fade.

No chance I'd take this heavy beast to the track. I think the stock brakes would fail and sheer mass would be tough to tame.

OK. Maybe for a few laps. But that's it

Just for context, how much track driving have you done before?

 

[PeteZed]

Just for context, how much track driving have you done before?

About 3 years of track experience. A few races, but mostly as a weekend warrior. I own a few track only cars that I use to learn and have some fun with.

 

[Duke846]

Just for context, how much track driving have you done before?

why Do you ask? Everyone saying the brakes are scary soft.

 

[PeteZed]

About 3 years of track experience. A few races, but mostly as a weekend warrior. I own a few track only cars that I use to learn and have some fun with.

Please don't get me wrong, I would love for track mode / software update to solve this issue. Just not sure it will. Either way, it's snowing up here now so I have the winter to wait for that update. Fingers crossed

 

[lolachampcar]

The data point that flies in the face of the Plaid brakes being too small for me is my previous P90DL. The brakes were "smaller" on that car and yet perfectly adequate in both feel and stopping performance for a car that likely was a few hundred pounds heavier.

and yes, I know the Plaid goes faster quicker but the metric for me is stopping both from the same speed, say 130 mph.

The Plaid has "bigger" brakes on the same size car yet perform worse. It does not seem like bigger is the absolutely only solution to the problem. Something else is going on.

All the above is just to get a street car with nice feeling trustworthy brakes for spirited street driving. None of the comments has anything to do with tracking the car.

 

[MFrunkerOG]

Are you going to track the car?
if not they fine.

They definitely not fine! They may be fine for you. They not fine for me.

I’m no track aficionado, but These brakes are similar to what my dodge Intrepid had in 2000… good lord! Did Tesla have an expendable gorilla test these?

The intrepid let me live because it was a massive boat that took a mile to get up to speed! Not this

P.S. gorillaz are great! One of my favorite bands! Gorillaz have massive quads to apply hydraulic pressure.. excetra… excetra…

 

[ninefiveone]

About 3 years of track experience. A few races, but mostly as a weekend warrior. I own a few track only cars that I use to learn and have some fun with.

why Do you ask? Everyone saying the brakes are scary soft.

I ask because I've driven cars on track for over 20 years and if there's one thing I know, people who don't track cars as hobby/profession haven't a clue about brakes. No offense but it is what it is. All of this "the Plaid has bad brakes" is very breathless and fueled pretty heavily by click-bait videos. That guy talking about "you can't shut off the stability control" isn't wrong, but he's being interpreted wrong. Stability control is going to work the brakes very hard, yes. Track pack should help that since it will have a much larger window before it intervenes with brakes to adjust the cars attitude. But an untrained driver is still going to end up heavily into the stability control with a track pack. Most people aren't Chris Harris.

I'm interested in the real braking capability gap since I do own a Plaid and I will track it at least once just for fun. Just for context, Porsche is the only manufacturer who equips cars with track-ready brakes but even they end up with a massive aftermarket for better brakes. Some of it is because people have upped the power on their cars, the vast majority of it is for vanity/anxiety.

So PeteZed, let's talk because I'm interested in your data.

You're saying they will fade slowing for a few offramps. Offramps in quick successsion? One Offramp? I have a hard time figuring out where I could even string together more than 2 offramps for hard braking but if you can fade the brakes just for one offramp, that is definitely unusual. I've had my plaid for a week. Haven't even had time to bed in the pads yet.

 

[PeteZed]

I ask because I've driven cars on track for over 20 years and if there's one thing I know, people who don't track cars as hobby/profession haven't a clue about brakes. No offense but it is what it is. All of this "the Plaid has bad brakes" is very breathless and fueled pretty heavily by click-bait videos. That guy talking about "you can't shut off the stability control" isn't wrong, but he's being interpreted wrong. Stability control is going to work the brakes very hard, yes. Track pack should help that since it will have a much larger window before it intervenes with brakes to adjust the cars attitude. But an untrained driver is still going to end up heavily into the stability control with a track pack. Most people aren't Chris Harris.

I'm interested in the real braking capability gap since I do own a Plaid and I will track it at least once just for fun. Just for context, Porsche is the only manufacturer who equips cars with track-ready brakes but even they end up with a massive aftermarket for better brakes. Some of it is because people have upped the power on their cars, the vast majority of it is for vanity/anxiety.

So PeteZed, let's talk because I'm interested in your data.

You're saying they will fade slowing for a few offramps. Offramps in quick successsion? One Offramp? I have a hard time figuring out where I could even string together more than 2 offramps for hard braking but if you can fade the brakes just for one offramp, that is definitely unusual. I've had my plaid for a week. Haven't even had time to bed in the pads yet.

I luv the dialogue Luke. I can't provide data, but can share my experience. First, I feel very confident I can detect brake performance degradation. For my style / personal preference, brakes must always be perceived as being able to slow the car down or I lose confidence in the performance envelope. I own 911 GTS and strongly agree, Porsche knows it's brakes. For reference, for my level / ability, I experience only minor fade in the 911, when on the track. Never on the street. This all said, I have experience brake fade when (I) in drag strip mode, I launch, accelerate to approx 150 kph. Then hard on the brakes - who needs a ticket. Doing this once, all is good. When I repeat, minor fade. Do it a third time and fade is very uncomfortable (Ii) for off ramps, similar experience with multiple ramps. My favorite part of Toronto has a series of on and off ramps that are within 750 meters. In-between this insane piece of engineering can easily accelerate bto 150kph. Heavy brakes because I'm concerned about all this weight letting go on a ramp. I don't think traction control is assisting me on the ramps, but it's possible - I've only owned the car for a short while, so trying to get the feel down. The experiences doesn't give me confidence that this machine is meant for anything aggressive. Try the above out with your car when the brakes are set and let us know. My biggest concern with changing the brakes on my end is insurance. I have to check that they will allow it.... In Toronto, you never know what they might say. I'll be checking soon and if ok, will upgrade - to what, not sure

 

[ninefiveone]

So… haven’t given any thought to a better pad compound?

 

[Duke846]

I ask because I've driven cars on track for over 20 years and if there's one thing I know, people who don't track cars as hobby/profession haven't a clue about brakes. No offense but it is what it is. All of this "the Plaid has bad brakes" is very breathless and fueled pretty heavily by click-bait videos. That guy talking about "you can't shut off the stability control" isn't wrong, but he's being interpreted wrong. Stability control is going to work the brakes very hard, yes. Track pack should help that since it will have a much larger window before it intervenes with brakes to adjust the cars attitude. But an untrained driver is still going to end up heavily into the stability control with a track pack. Most people aren't Chris Harris.

I'm interested in the real braking capability gap since I do own a Plaid and I will track it at least once just for fun. Just for context, Porsche is the only manufacturer who equips cars with track-ready brakes but even they end up with a massive aftermarket for better brakes. Some of it is because people have upped the power on their cars, the vast majority of it is for vanity/anxiety.

So PeteZed, let's talk because I'm interested in your data.

You're saying they will fade slowing for a few offramps. Offramps in quick successsion? One Offramp? I have a hard time figuring out where I could even string together more than 2 offramps for hard braking but if you can fade the brakes just for one offramp, that is definitely unusual. I've had my plaid for a week. Haven't even had time to bed in the pads yet.

You with not track the car once. It’s brakes are that bad.
Not set up stock. Of you do it will be expensive. They suck.

 

[MFrunkerOG]

It looks like all ya’ll are more interested in track chest thumping

Whatever Tesla did with this car’s brakes is now causing me to do a lot of early braking. Yes on the regular street… early braking is a huge irritant when you really want to accelerate but would like to not crash into the F150 in front of you that’s stopping faster than you are!

I have a service appointment in a week to fix a couple of things I noticed at delivery. I’ll add “soft brakes” to the service comments and see what they come back with!

 

[Richbot]

speed is squared in the kinetic energy equation and the Plaid can pile on more of it more quickly than almost any other production vehicle ever...and the brakes still need to work in the snow. It's not a garbage pad, but it's a pad that has to work in Alaska in winter. It's gonna need some help if you're going to make the rotors glow twice a week. Plaid can develop what, up to 250kw on regen, at low-ish soc? There's a zero missing there if you're going 150mph, which you will be any time you have a spare 9 seconds and enough road, and want to stop in the same zip code

Seems like proper ducting and proper two-piece rotors and a proper track pad would fix 99% of this...if Girodisc or somebody like that isn't already working on one I'd be sorta surprised. Obviously MPP has a solution coming too. Even some Porsche-style front lower control arm air diverters might be helpful. Those are like $20 per side

 

[Richbot]

RB is looking to sponsor 3 track drives with the following qualification to test drive this Track Kit:

1. Minimum 3 years track experience.
2. Car must be a dedicated track car and is one of the listed American Muscle cars, plus GT-R and M5.
3. Rebuilding calipers at least once.

Qualified individual will

• Receive 30-50% discount on purchase.
• 100% warranty against any performance issue at any tracking condition as fast as you can run your Plaid on tracks
• If your brake task is determined to be above what this iron kit can handle, the CCB kit will be replaced at cost difference (100% credit on iron kit purchase).

Please contact us for further details if you are qualified and interested.

I have a set of RacingBrake's rear rotors on my M3 and they have something like 40,000 miles on them and have essentially zero wear. They do not have huge brand name ID yet with enthusiasts but they are, IMO, a legit company that has real life engineering experience to offer

 

[Duke846]

I have a set of RacingBrake's rear rotors on my M3 and they have something like 40,000 miles on them and have essentially zero wear. They do not have huge brand name ID yet with enthusiasts but they are, IMO, a legit company that has real life engineering experience to offer

Maybe they just don’t want to stop to fast !!!

 

[Duke846]

It looks like all ya’ll are more interested in track chest thumping

Whatever Tesla did with this car’s brakes is now causing me to do a lot of early braking. Yes on the regular street… early braking is a huge irritant when you really want to accelerate but would like to not crash into the F150 in front of you that’s stopping faster than you are!

I have a service appointment in a week to fix a couple of things I noticed at delivery. I’ll add “soft brakes” to the service comments and see what they come back with!

Maybe they just don’t want you to do this!!!

 

[lbowroom]

speed is squared in the kinetic energy equation and the Plaid can pile on more of it more quickly than almost any other production vehicle ever...and the brakes still need to work in the snow. It's not a garbage pad, but it's a pad that has to work in Alaska in winter. It's gonna need some help if you're going to make the rotors glow twice a week. Plaid can develop what, up to 250kw on regen, at low-ish soc? There's a zero missing there if you're going 150mph, which you will be any time you have a spare 9 seconds and enough road, and want to stop in the same zip code

Seems like proper ducting and proper two-piece rotors and a proper track pad would fix 99% of this...if Girodisc or somebody like that isn't already working on one I'd be sorta surprised. Obviously MPP has a solution coming too. Even some Porsche-style front lower control arm air diverters might be helpful. Those are like $20 per side

Girodisk is Mountain Pass Performance's supplier. They are currently testing 400mm front disc kit.

 

[ninefiveone]

speed is squared in the kinetic energy equation and the Plaid can pile on more of it more quickly than almost any other production vehicle ever...and the brakes still need to work in the snow. It's not a garbage pad, but it's a pad that has to work in Alaska in winter. It's gonna need some help if you're going to make the rotors glow twice a week. Plaid can develop what, up to 250kw on regen, at low-ish soc? There's a zero missing there if you're going 150mph, which you will be any time you have a spare 9 seconds and enough road, and want to stop in the same zip code

Seems like proper ducting and proper two-piece rotors and a proper track pad would fix 99% of this...if Girodisc or somebody like that isn't already working on one I'd be sorta surprised. Obviously MPP has a solution coming too. Even some Porsche-style front lower control arm air diverters might be helpful. Those are like $20 per side

This is the “right” answer and I also agree with @MFrunkerOG that most just want to chest thump.

Better pad, bigger heatsink (rotor), better fluid, and improved cooling is the best track improvement 99% of the time and costs $1-2k at most. Given you probably need to upgrade the rear brakes (not needed for most cars despite what vendors will tell you) on the plaid just to cope with stability control demands… ok $2-4k at most.

But then you don’t get to spec boast about giant calipers etc. No one can see good brake pads or cooling ductwork like a big shiny red caliper, lol.


Now… do we know what pad size/shape the Plaid is using so we can cross-reference to a good street/track pad? That plus a ducted backing plate would make a huge difference. And then if you were really serious… the bigger rotors. Yeah you’d still need to drive around the brakes a little bit on track but c‘ mon, it’s still a boat at the end of the day. It’s fun for novelty’s sake. The guys in the club spec Miata’s are still having the most fun of anyone out there.

 

[Richbot]

I dunno if you do wheel fans everyone will see it.

*flex* see guys, not only can this thing run 9's, but I won't die after doing it 3 times in a row at racewarz. Don't come at me unless you got 12 pots or more

Or V8 Supercar style water cooling, that'd turn some heads, lol

Disagree on Spec Miatas being the most fun, still too heavy. Also, why does my track car have a trunk