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Audi A7 base price in the US is $59,250. Of course, that's before dealer prep charges, delivery, taxes, title, etc.
Hi Alex,
Welcome to the forum.
This is the price of a game changing catalyst.
Somebody has to be first to move away from fossil fuels to demonstrate to others why electric vehicles, in the bigger scheme of things, are a much better alternative. I’m gratified that I’m in that stage of my life where I have the financial resources to do this, while having fun in the process.
I believe that the introduction of the Model S is a historic turning point for electric vehicles and it is exactly the same as when Henry Ford introduced the game changing Model T. In 1908 when it was introduced a Model T cost $850 and the average annual salary was $327. So at 2.6 times the average annual salary it’s fair to say that this car was a luxury that only a few people at the time could afford. Likewise, the most expensive Model S costs about $109,000 (without considering the federal tax credit) and the average annual salary at the end of 2011 was $51,413, so the Model S represents about 2.1 times the average annual salary. Therefore, even the most expensive Model S is still more affordable than the Model T was when it was introduced.
So in summary, I see it as history repeating itself. That is, it requires financially comfortable early adopters to get the ball rolling on these disruptive pivotal technologies. If you don't have the temperment, or don't have a high pain threshold to be an early adopter, its okay to back away.
Larry
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Actually, I've done pretty well with early adopting. A few things that come to mind. (Can't count Tesla because I don't actually have it yet)
ATAS metal roof (8 years ago)
Takagi tankless water heater (10 years ago)
iPhone (first day of the original)
Prius (2001)
Prius (2004, on the first bunch of cars in Texas)
SGI Indy
2 drawer dishwasher (12 years ago)
Washer dryer combo (that is the washer and the dryer are the same system)
I saw one of these at Fry's electronics I think LG made it and I was going to get one for my summer home. The salesman told me these were a waste of money and it would take something like 12 hours to dry clothes. What is your experience?
The good thing about Tesla is that the Model S is the second EV they have produced with a much more robust warranty vs the roadster. First time EV owners should not be concerned at all about the technology, if anything goes wrong it will be the peripheral stuff.
1. You put the clothes in before you go to work and they are ready to hang when you come home. If you want to hang around and watch them dry then you won't be happy (I'm not sure why you'd want to do this though).
2. There is no vent so you won't burn down your house.
3. The 110V uses far less energy than a normal dryer (the washing cycle is about the same).
4. It takes up less space (There is a place for a UPS now).
5. Should you require service, LG service is really bad. (I've needed service once in ten years)
The peripheral stuff breaks in every car. No difference there.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
So I think we've come down to some good answers to the OP:
- Very large batteries are expensive
- The motor and associated electronics are the result of expensive and patented research
- Aluminum frame and panels are expensive
- High-end interior materials
- High gross margin to cover fixed start-up costs
- Pricing for value, rather than cost+
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Not 100% sure of this just yet. The interior materials are not high end for a 100k car and adequate for a 57k car
Don't forget that Tesla does not have the economy of scale that BMW or Mercedes or Lexus has.
Even if Tesla built the exact same car as one of those, it would cost Tesla more to build.
You are paying a premium to buy a car from a small manufacturer, but you have to if you want one because those guys can not or will not build a car like this.
I tend to agree that the Tesla Model S may fall short as a luxury sedan when compared to Audi, BMW or Lexus luxury models, but I think there is a more interesting comparison. As a sport sedan, compared to a Honda Accord EX or equivalent in the $35000 price range, the Tesla Model S is quite a lot of car for your dollar.
Consider the 160 mile base version of the Model S. This is basically the same car the Signature and Performance buyers are getting, albeit without the range or thoroughbred powertrain. Statically on the street, or even dynamically when driving the wife and cubs around town, it has the same head turning style and coolness, and all the same technology appointments in terms of EV powertrain, dashboard and remote access.
As far as EVs go, a 160 mile battery vs 85-100 miles of range of other models is really quite decent, and just enough to perform useful medium single day trips. While there is increased range anxiety vs the very comfortable 265-300 miles, a 160 mile battery has enough range for a 200 mile roundtrip with minor planning/inconvenience. That is, 100 miles to destination charger, taking the bus to CBD or catching a ride or charge with friends, then 100 miles back.
Regarding thoughts about simplicity-of-interior, for the most part I think buttons in cars are overused as a form of interior styling. In terms of exposing functionality, I find having many buttons decreases accessibility. I tend not to interact with modern dashes as the climate control generally manages things well, windows have dedicated buttons, and the sunroof is moved at the start & end of trips. The main thing I do interact with is the GPS (while juggling the iPhone for traffic info), and the Model S 17" screen looks to be game changing. If we follow the technology trends, the future of car interiors is minimalist wrt buttons, replaced by large displays and voice control as we see more ubiquitous car 'intelligence'.
Back to points about getting a lot of car for your dollar. Consider for $58000 you can get a 160 mile battery with pano roof, leather interior, air suspension and a 17" touch panel with technology package. 6.5s 0-60 is very competitive in this space. The price can be arbitrarily broken down to: $38000 car, $10000 prepaid gas, and $10000 early adopter tax which is funding battery research and bootstrapping a silicon valley auto company (awesome).
Even the Performance option is pretty good value. Consider for a moment that we remove the 300 mile battery requirement for the Performance model. Think a Gen3 with 160 mile range with performance option for an additional $15000. That's really not that unreasonable compared to what you pay when bumping the horsepower specs on a base Lexus, for a car with sub-5s 0-60! I think we'd see people splurging on Performance with 160 mile batteries, because there is value in what is being offered. The value is just less once you have to eat +$20000 for 300 miles of battery research, and there is a line somewhere in the $50k-$70k range that causes many to fail the reality check when considering the utility vs luxury features of a car.
So, for those of us tippy toeing into the "driver's car" culture, who are considering foregoing an upgrade to a low/mid-spec'ed BMW or Lexus from our Fords and Toyotas. Going EV with Tesla Model S - there is a lot to be excited about
Consider the 160 mile base version of the Model S. This is basically the same car the Signature and Performance buyers are getting, albeit without the range or thoroughbred powertrain. Statically on the street, or even dynamically when driving the wife and cubs around town, it has the same head turning style and coolness, and all the same technology appointments in terms of EV powertrain, dashboard and remote access.
As far as EVs go, a 160 mile battery vs 85-100 miles of range of other models is really quite decent, and just enough to perform useful medium single day trips. While there is increased range anxiety vs the very comfortable 265-300 miles, a 160 mile battery has enough range for a 200 mile roundtrip with minor planning/inconvenience. That is, 100 miles to destination charger, taking the bus to CBD or catching a ride or charge with friends, then 100 miles back.
Regarding thoughts about simplicity-of-interior, for the most part I think buttons in cars are overused as a form of interior styling. In terms of exposing functionality, I find having many buttons decreases accessibility. I tend not to interact with modern dashes as the climate control generally manages things well, windows have dedicated buttons, and the sunroof is moved at the start & end of trips. The main thing I do interact with is the GPS (while juggling the iPhone for traffic info), and the Model S 17" screen looks to be game changing. If we follow the technology trends, the future of car interiors is minimalist wrt buttons, replaced by large displays and voice control as we see more ubiquitous car 'intelligence'.
Back to points about getting a lot of car for your dollar. Consider for $58000 you can get a 160 mile battery with pano roof, leather interior, air suspension and a 17" touch panel with technology package. 6.5s 0-60 is very competitive in this space. The price can be arbitrarily broken down to: $38000 car, $10000 prepaid gas, and $10000 early adopter tax which is funding battery research and bootstrapping a silicon valley auto company (awesome).
Even the Performance option is pretty good value. Consider for a moment that we remove the 300 mile battery requirement for the Performance model. Think a Gen3 with 160 mile range with performance option for an additional $15000. That's really not that unreasonable compared to what you pay when bumping the horsepower specs on a base Lexus, for a car with sub-5s 0-60! I think we'd see people splurging on Performance with 160 mile batteries, because there is value in what is being offered. The value is just less once you have to eat +$20000 for 300 miles of battery research, and there is a line somewhere in the $50k-$70k range that causes many to fail the reality check when considering the utility vs luxury features of a car.
So, for those of us tippy toeing into the "driver's car" culture, who are considering foregoing an upgrade to a low/mid-spec'ed BMW or Lexus from our Fords and Toyotas. Going EV with Tesla Model S - there is a lot to be excited about
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I tend to agree that the Tesla Model S may fall short as a luxury sedan when compared to Audi, BMW or Lexus luxury models, but I think there is a more interesting comparison. As a sport sedan, compared to a Honda Accord EX or equivalent in the $35000 price range, the Tesla Model S is quite a lot of car for your dollar.
Consider the 160 mile base version of the Model S. This is basically the same car the Signature and Performance buyers are getting, albeit without the range or thoroughbred powertrain. Statically on the street, or even dynamically when driving the wife and cubs around town, it has the same head turning style and coolness, and all the same technology appointments in terms of EV powertrain, dashboard and remote access.
As far as EVs go, a 160 mile battery vs 85-100 miles of range of other models is really quite decent, and just enough to perform useful medium single day trips. While there is increased range anxiety vs the very comfortable 265-300 miles, a 160 mile battery has enough range for a 200 mile roundtrip with minor planning/inconvenience. That is, 100 miles to destination charger, taking the bus to CBD or catching a ride or charge with friends, then 100 miles back.
Regarding thoughts about simplicity-of-interior, for the most part I think buttons in cars are overused as a form of interior styling. In terms of exposing functionality, I find having many buttons decreases accessibility. I tend not to interact with modern dashes as the climate control generally manages things well, windows have dedicated buttons, and the sunroof is moved at the start & end of trips. The main thing I do interact with is the GPS (while juggling the iPhone for traffic info), and the Model S 17" screen looks to be game changing. If we follow the technology trends, the future of car interiors is minimalist wrt buttons, replaced by large displays and voice control as we see more ubiquitous car 'intelligence'.
Back to points about getting a lot of car for your dollar. Consider for $58000 you can get a 160 mile battery with pano roof, leather interior, air suspension and a 17" touch panel with technology package. 6.5s 0-60 is very competitive in this space. The price can be arbitrarily broken down to: $38000 car, $10000 prepaid gas, and $10000 early adopter tax which is funding battery research and bootstrapping a silicon valley auto company (awesome).
Even the Performance option is pretty good value. Consider for a moment that we remove the 300 mile battery requirement for the Performance model. Think a Gen3 with 160 mile range with performance option for an additional $15000. That's really not that unreasonable compared to what you pay when bumping the horsepower specs on a base Lexus, for a car with sub-5s 0-60! I think we'd see people splurging on Performance with 160 mile batteries, because there is value in what is being offered. The value is just less once you have to eat +$20000 for 300 miles of battery research, and there is a line somewhere in the $50k-$70k range that causes many to fail the reality check when considering the utility vs luxury features of a car.
So, for those of us tippy toeing into the "driver's car" culture, who are considering foregoing an upgrade to a low/mid-spec'ed BMW or Lexus from our Fords and Toyotas. Going EV with Tesla Model S - there is a lot to be excited about
Do you feel that the 100k+ Performance version is a good value? I mean value is subjective there is no car with the Model S' EV Range that currently exists, I am talking about when compared to other 100k sedans.
Simplicity & sparse are two different concepts. Regardless of what Tesla says about open consoles etc, I am not so sure if customers spending 100k on a car want an interior that looks like it was out of Pimp My Ride. In order for the Model S to be taken seriously in the Premium category it has to offer a richer looking interior. Better materials;from my interaction with the Model S, I felt that the door panels & door switch gear, arm rest, and seat adjustments did not feel substantial and (dare I use the word) cheap.
Lets be honest here the 85kwh Model S Performance is not worth 50k more than the 40kwh (with regards to value as you alluded to, you get way more car for your money buying a 57k Model S vs a 100k+ Model S Performance, more so than any other auto manufacturer that offers a significant price gradient between two models built on the same platform). Tesla is in a pool where they are the only swimmer. To put it plainly and bluntly, it is very likely that the Model S will not stand the test of time. What I am saying is, if Model S proves to be successful, I think it would be relatively forward to a large auto manufacturer to come in and replicate the best features of the Model S but also infuse it with interior equipment that is more befitting for a 100k sedan.
The Model S Performance costs more than E63 AMG"s M5's etc...the cost is now on par with S550's, BMW 7's etc
The enthusiasts, tree huggers etc will all stand in line for a Model S, but that just plays into the hands of what big auto manufacturers have been saying the whole time (Tesla is a niche brand not a mainstream brand). In order for the Model S to be a mainstream success they are going to have to conform and include a more feature rich and luxurious interior.
The Model S is a great first car, but if Tesla is going to play this minimalist angle, and open console nonsense I really do not think they can be taken seriously as a mainstream player.
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Hi Jerry,
My point was that maybe Alex thinks that the Model S is unduly expensive because he doesn't think like an early adopter. That is, he may not ascribe the same level of importance to certain key aspects of owning a Model S that many early adopters do. For instance, maybe getting off fossil fuels is simply not important to him, but the interior really bugs him. So whereas an early adopter might be bugged by the interior, nevertheless his/her greater tolerance permits other key factors to outweigh the concern. If Alex doesn't share that perspective, then the Model S is probably not a good fit for him.
Larry
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Let's make up some arbitrary numbers to perform a value comparison.
160 version is a $38000 car with $10000 early adopter tax.
300 Performance version is a $59000 car with $35000 early adopter tax.
As a $38000 car I think it is pretty competitive.
As a $59000 car it's probably a stretch. Lacking Adaptive Cruise Control and Lane Assistant, it's a bit light on luxury features for me.
Separately, 300 model is just out of the question for me based purely on absolute price, as are all the cars you mention. Then knowing a good chunk of that price is battery tax makes it that much more unpalatable.
As a 'Model T' for those with some disposable income, the Model S 160 is worth consideration.
The Model S is a sedan with the cargo space of a small SUV.
There is nothing else on the market with that utility.
That utility is worth a lot of money if you need it.
Here's another perspective:
The 160 mile version is a $38000 car with $20000 worth of gasoline prepaid.
The 300 mile version is a $59000 car with $30000 worth of gas prepaid.
There is nothing else on the market with that utility.
That utility is worth a lot of money if you need it.
Here's another perspective:
The 160 mile version is a $38000 car with $20000 worth of gasoline prepaid.
The 300 mile version is a $59000 car with $30000 worth of gas prepaid.
