Model X Falcon Doors

[Jeeps17]

I've never understood how these doors can work in snow country; seems like they're having enough trouble with rain, let alone heavy snow. I'm worried that this will end up being a black eye for Tesla.

+1.

That is my wife's main concern about the X.

Since she would be the one driving it most often, it has thus become MY main concern as well... :scared:

 

[bonnie]

I guess we'll find out soon enough . (Not sure where that comment about 'having enough trouble with rain' came from, though. That was random.)

Just as an exercise, those ... notice what your wife does this winter in heavy snow. Or anyone else, for that matter. Does she brush the snow away from the hood of the car and from the windshield and from the roof of the car before driving off? I always did (and still do, when in snow country). Because if you don't, it inevitably sliiiiides forward and blocks your view. Or falls in the driver's door. Or something annoying. I expect to still be doing the same with falcon wing doors.

(by the way, I saw this thread pop up in my feed and my first thought was 'well, we haven't had a round on how much some people don't think the doors will work for a few days, I guess it's due' ... I know people don't like change, resist change, don't want something different. But these doors really really aren't that new. It's just a different position on a vehicle. And if people don't like them when they see them or believe they are problematic, they will cancel and wait for a diff Tesla vehicle. We always have a choice.)

 

[Jeeps17]

I guess we'll find out soon enough . (Not sure where that comment about 'having enough trouble with rain' came from, though. That was random.)

Just as an exercise, those ... notice what your wife does this winter in heavy snow. Or anyone else, for that matter. Does she brush the snow away from the hood of the car and from the windshield and from the roof of the car before driving off? I always did (and still do, when in snow country). Because if you don't, it inevitably sliiiiides forward and blocks your view. Or falls in the driver's door. Or something annoying. I expect to still be doing the same with falcon wing doors.

(by the way, I saw this thread pop up in my feed and my first thought was 'well, we haven't had a round on how much some people don't think the doors will work for a few days, I guess it's due' ... I know people don't like change, resist change, don't want something different. But these doors really really aren't that new. It's just a different position on a vehicle. And if people don't like them when they see them or believe they are problematic, they will cancel and wait for a diff Tesla vehicle. We always have a choice.)

Being a California company, Tesla has not shown (so far) above-average insight in designing vehicles for "real winter" locales - the anemic windshield ventilation (since corrected with a TSB) and impossible to lift clear of the hood wipers (good luck getting packed snow out of there!) are examples that come to mind. It's little details like that that count.

I get your point, and I agree about always brushing snow off of any vehicle you drive. My wife's concern is not so much about that (we hate rolling igloos), but about dirty salty slush that very often accumulates along the bottom of the door edges. With conventional doors this is less of a problem, as you move the slush away from yourself with the door as you exit or enter the vehicle. With falcon doors, that slush could potentially slide off onto the head of a passenger at any moment when the door is opening, open, or closing (especially if the vehicle parks into a heated garage). Even if such slush does not hit someone directly, I can imagine the splash factor from that height...

Do I know if this will happen? Nope, but it's another small detail I hope they took into consideration.

I don't want dirty slush to scuttle my Model X purchase !

 

[aronth5]

I guess we'll find out soon enough . (Not sure where that comment about 'having enough trouble with rain' came from, though. That was random.)

Just as an exercise, those ... notice what your wife does this winter in heavy snow. Or anyone else, for that matter. Does she brush the snow away from the hood of the car and from the windshield and from the roof of the car before driving off? I always did (and still do, when in snow country). Because if you don't, it inevitably sliiiiides forward and blocks your view. Or falls in the driver's door. Or something annoying. I expect to still be doing the same with falcon wing doors.

(by the way, I saw this thread pop up in my feed and my first thought was 'well, we haven't had a round on how much some people don't think the doors will work for a few days, I guess it's due' ... I know people don't like change, resist change, don't want something different. But these doors really really aren't that new. It's just a different position on a vehicle. And if people don't like them when they see them or believe they are problematic, they will cancel and wait for a diff Tesla vehicle. We always have a choice.)

IMO the doors will continue to be controversial long after their in production mode. But I agree that once owners understand how to deal with cleaning snow off before getting in the problem will be less severe then some think. The glass in the Falcon doors will likely be heated so that will address a significant problem for most. However, for some it will still be a deal breaker. It will be interesting to see what changes can still be made once winter arrives and they can do some real world testing. Since Model S weather testing was done in Baudette Minnesota at the AET Proving Grounds good chance it will be done there too. But for all we know there is a prototype Model X in Chile right now under going winter testing since June through August are their heaviest snow months.

 

[JRP3]

My wife's concern is not so much about that (we hate rolling igloos), but about dirty salty slush that very often accumulates along the bottom of the door edges. With conventional doors this is less of a problem, as you move the slush away from yourself with the door as you exit or enter the vehicle. With falcon doors, that slush could potentially slide off onto the head of a passenger at any moment when the door is opening, open, or closing (especially if the vehicle parks into a heated garage). Even if such slush does not hit someone directly, I can imagine the splash factor from that height...

That's actually the first legitimate concern I've seen, but I'd say only under limited circumstances. It would have to be cold enough to create freezing slush that collects on the bottom of the door but warm enough that it would start dripping off when the door is opened. Something to keep an eye on, but I think ultimately avoidable. Maybe an option for a heated strip along the bottom of the door...

 

[BlueTan85]

Just think, someone will prolly offer aftermarket normal doors! Take your X in, away go the Falcons, and you get S-type doors instead. With an amazing sunroof and a roof rack thrown in for good measure.

Oh, 2015 is gonna be fun.

 

[tezco]

(Not sure where that comment about 'having enough trouble with rain' came from, though. That was random.)

Just as an exercise, those ... notice what your wife does this winter in heavy snow. Or anyone else, for that matter. Does she brush the snow away from the hood of the car and from the windshield and from the roof of the car before driving off?

The concern about rain was raised by Elon and reposted by AnOutsider:

Sounds like normal doors might've seen the X on the road by now.

Tesla Motors' (TSLA) CEO Elon Musk on Q1 2014 Results - Earnings Call Transcript | Seeking Alpha

[translation of some words are a little off ...]

Elon R. Musk
Such as for example getting the seals on the buckling door to work properly and not be too prominent so that you got seal against rain, winds and against road noise, but you've got something that's articulating across multiple hinges. You've got key junction joints and that kind of thing. So it's quite a difficult sealing problem....

Regarding brushing off snow; neither I or my passengers have to do this prior to exiting our current cars, but Model X drivers may have to tell their rear seat passenger to sit tight until the snow is brushed off the doors if they travel in the middle of an intense snowstorm. Around here, if it's snowing hard, you can't drive fast enough to keep the snow blown off the top of the car.

Also, somewhat commonly, when we park after traveling in snow and come back later, we are unable to get the front doors open since they have frozen closed. Usually we can get the rear doors open, but this will dump snow into the X unless you take your snow brush with you when you park. I know people will say this is a contrived situation, but it happens several times each winter in town, and even more often at the ski areas.

 

[bonnie]

Being a California company, Tesla has not shown (so far) above-average insight in designing vehicles for "real winter" locales - the anemic windshield ventilation (since corrected with a TSB) and impossible to lift clear of the hood wipers (good luck getting packed snow out of there!) are examples that come to mind. It's little details like that that count.

I've had people tag me with the 'you're from California, you don't understand' (the nerve!! I'm a Minnesota girl!) so I feel a need to point out that if Tesla was in a snowy locale, we'd also be saying they clearly weren't a warm weather company, because they didn't get the ventilation to the back row and no one had a sense of urgency about the pano roof shade. ... you get my point. I'm not so sure it's a 'from California' thing, but maybe more a 'tight deadline if we want to survive as a company' thing with the Model S. I've been pretty happy over the delays on the X, because the word has been the delays have been a result of wanting to get everything right.

- - - Updated - - -

The concern about rain was raised by Elon and reposted by AnOutsider:



Regarding brushing off snow; neither I or my passengers have to do this prior to exiting our current cars, but Model X drivers may have to tell their rear seat passenger to sit tight until the snow is brushed off the doors if they travel in the middle of an intense snowstorm. Around here, if it's snowing hard, you can't drive fast enough to keep the snow blown off the top of the car.

Also, somewhat commonly, when I park after traveling in snow and come back later, we are unable to get the front doors open since they have frozen closed. Usually we can get the rear doors open, but this will dump snow into the X unless you take your snow brush with you when you park.

I guess we read Elon's comment differently. I see someone saying that you have to make sure that's not an issue. But from your comment, it appears you believe he was saying he was having 'enough trouble' with that. I'm glad he's considering different conditions. I don't see those conditions as anything more than test cases - definitely not things that are causing trouble.

- - - Updated - - -

Regarding brushing off snow; neither I or my passengers have to do this prior to exiting our current cars, but Model X drivers may have to tell their rear seat passenger to sit tight until the snow is brushed off the doors if they travel in the middle of an intense snowstorm. Around here, if it's snowing hard, you can't drive fast enough to keep the snow blown off the top of the car.

Also, somewhat commonly, when we park after traveling in snow and come back later, we are unable to get the front doors open since they have frozen closed. Usually we can get the rear doors open, but this will dump snow into the X unless you take your snow brush with you when you park. I know people will say this is a contrived situation, but it happens several times each winter in town, and even more often at the ski areas.

Exactly where in Colorado are you? I had 20+ years along the Front Range and while one door might be frozen closed, it would be a rare event indeed to have BOTH doors frozen closed. Are you by Grand Lake or ? Usually I could avoid the whole frozen door scenario by parking the car oriented towards sunshine (assuming the storm had stopped. And since it was usually after a storm that it warmed up enough to get ice, then freeze again overnight, that's a fair assumption.)

 

[tezco]

Elon apparently said "So it's quite a difficult sealing problem..." which lead me to think they have at least experienced some problems in the past. They have probably solved this for rain by now, but I'm not sure it will be as easy to make the doors close properly when snow falls in on the seals. I have enough trouble with the trunk of my old Audi such that I have to be very careful to completely clean off the back window, the trunk lid, trunk seals and the rear bumper before closing the trunk. It enough of a pain in the ass, that I put the groceries in the back seat during a snow storm.

 

[Zapped]

I can never figure out why someone would drive around with snow on their roof.

 

[tezco]

Exactly where in Colorado are you? I had 20+ years along the Front Range and while one door might be frozen closed, it would be a rare event indeed to have BOTH doors frozen closed.

Rural Boulder County. The doors tend to freeze when you open them while it is actively snowing (or now that our local climate is warming, when there is freezing drizzle). Leave the car in the cold and that water on the seals turns into super glue. If you were fortunate enough to have not previously opened the rear doors, you can usually get in that way. Usually happens during a cold snap, so there is no sun to thaw it out for several days (and it's usually when I leave work after dark, or the following morning.) A couple of times the only thing that opened was the trunk. My usual trick is to unlock all doors and slam the one rear door that I can open. The quickly rising air pressure will often pop open one of the front doors, otherwise it's a climb over the console. (Since I got the S, the poor old Audi has to live outside the garage, and has been relegated to being the snow, salt and gravel car.) I canceled my X reservation in 2012 because I wanted to see how well those unconventional falcon doors work. Unfortunately the wait has been quite lengthy. I've also begun to think that The X is a bit large for my needs. Currently hoping for an AWD S before I retire, but that's getting quite close.

 

[bonnie]

Rural Boulder County. The doors tend to freeze when you open them while it is actively snowing (or now that our local climate is warming, when there is freezing drizzle). Leave the car in the cold and that water on the seals turns into super glue. If you were fortunate enough to have not previously opened the rear doors, you can usually get in that way. Usually happens during a cold snap, so there is no sun to thaw it out for several days (and it's usually when I leave work after dark, or the following morning.) A couple of times the only thing that opened was the trunk. My usual trick is to unlock all doors and slam the one rear door that I can open. The quickly rising air pressure will often pop open one of the front doors, otherwise it's a climb over the console. (Since I got the S, the poor old Audi has to live outside the garage, and has been relegated to being the snow, salt and gravel car.) I canceled my X reservation in 2012 because I wanted to see how well those unconventional falcon doors work. Unfortunately the wait has been quite lengthy. I've also begun to think that The X is a bit large for my needs. Currently hoping for an AWD S before I retire, but that's getting quite close.

My years were in Boulder - must be a difference between rural and North Boulder. My experience was that a side of the car would freeze if it had snow on it, warmed during the day, then froze at night - but only the side that didn't completely heat in the sun.
Have you had problems with the model s hatchback freezing shut?

 

[JRP3]

I suggest putting Armor All or something similar on all your rubber sealing surfaces for the winter, in any vehicle. It helps keep windows from freezing shut, along with doors and hatches. I can't say I've ever had much of an issue with snow falling into a hatchback or trunk so I'm having trouble imagining it being a big deal on the X doors. That said, even with conventional doors wind can blow snow onto your seat, so you wipe most of it off with a quick swipe and then hop in. I've never ended up with a wet backside because of it.

 

[tezco]

Actually silicone spray works quite well, but I never remember to renew the coating before the first real storm, and then it's "I'll do it this weekend", which means I forget until I've been frozen out a few times...

I still think there is the potential for more snow to dump on passengers from the horizontal surfaces adjacent to the falcon doors, in comparison to what enters from the nearly vertical surfaces next to conventional doors. I wonder how gull wing doors behave in deep snow? Don't know anyone that has a pair, and they probably wouldn't take one of those cars skiing anyway.

 

[dh73]

I don't know how large this category of Model S buyers are, but it seems a number of people buying a Model S would never spend $70K and upwards on a car if it weren’t for the Model S. I also don't know how many of them are using a roof rack. But if the same is true for the Model X, as seems to be true for Model S, then there may be a higher percentage that wants to use roof racks on their Xs compared to other high-end crossover SUVs.

I had reserved a model X to replace a 12 year old 4Runner that I expected would last until 2015. I was very concerned about roof racks on the X - I frequently need to carry four bicycles (a hitch mount could work...), or one paddelboard (12', on roof), or (rarely) two kayaks. And quite frequently I carry at least two hang gliders, sometimes up to six on the 4Runner. I *never* expected to spend more than $35k on a car, and at ~$42k for the new 4Runner I test drove it was hard to stomach given the gas expense.

Well, the 4Runner transmission went and died, and I couldn't wait, and I got a model S. Delivery in 10 days. I've already got the Whispbar racks, two bike racks, the Echohitch, and a 2" hitch support for gliders (vertical post, horizontal support at level of roof racks). I'll be able to carry four bikes (two on the roof and two in a hitch rack), or two bikes and two gliders (two bikes on roof, rear support installed and gliders on that and roof racks). It'll reduce range, but there are 3 superchargers on my normal recreation route where I'd be carrying this stuff so it's no problem. I think it'll work out well.

I'm probably an anomaly. But the S may well be a better SUV for me than the X. Still left my deposit down but expect I'll ask for it back. Really curious about the details. How could you carry, say, two hang-gliders or two paddleboards (say, 12 to 14 feet long)? Doesn't seem that exotic a requirement for an SUV.

 

[Teo]

I'm worried that some kid will lose their fingers because of the falcon wing doors. What happens when somebody puts their hand to the gap between the door and the frame and someone else on the outside leans to the door?

A lot of people will buy the MX as a family car and they will pick up their kids from school. The falcon wing doors already attract a lot of attention among kids and it is very easy to imagine a scenario where the kid and some friends walk together towards the MX as they keep talking. Then the child jumps in to the car. The other kids are outside. They keep talking a little more. The parent is in the driver's seat.

Then either the parent or the child presses the button and the door starts closing. But the kids outside keep talking about some last second thing. From here on things are very different between a traditional car door and the falcon wing doors.

Firstly with a traditional car door closing the door takes only one second. If somebody started talking as you are closing the rear door, you would either stop closing the door or you would close it and then lower the window. With the MX, closing the door and then lowering the window is not quick enough. There is just too much delay. Some people especially kids would rather quickly stop the door and continue talking for a few seconds.

The second and most unfortunate difference is that the easiest and fastest way to stop the door from closing is to put your hand in the gap to trigger the sensors which will stop the door. With a tradition door there is never any reason at all why somebody would want to put their hand between the door and the frame on purpose. But with the MX door the sensors become a reason to do that. Kids might even trigger the sensors for fun. Some kids will interrupt the door from closing by putting their hand in the gap on purpose so they can just have a few more words with their friends outside.

But at that moment, the kid's hand is between the door and the frame, what happens if somebody accidentally bumps into the door or leans to it?

Some people will argue that fingers can be smashed with regular doors too if you put your hand in the gap. However with regular doors there was no reason to put your hand where it might be smashed. With the MX the reason is to trigger the sensors. It increases the risk a lot, maybe 1000 times. I guess we will see some statistics in the future about smashed fingers.

Tesla has not shown that they have thought through the security aspect of gimmick features. For example the MS door handles should retract if they are obstructed but they don't. Why don't they? Here is a picture of a little girl who had her fingers stuck in a MS door handle:

Model S Photo Gallery - Page 9

Another possible scenario could be like this:
The car is parked on the side of the road. The driver side faces the road. The parent opens the driver side rear door. The kid sits. Then instead waiting by the door for it to close (many parents wouldn't wait outside the rear door for it to close because it takes too much time) the parent does one of two things: either she sits on the driver's seat and closes the rear door from there or she presses the button under the open door and proceeds immediately to the drivers seat.

The door starts moving down but near the end is interrupted by the kids hand. It stops but the kids hand is still in the gap because this is a little kid who doesn't understand. At that moment a cyclist is passing by who expects the door to fully close before he is next to the car but the door doesn't close therefore the cyclist loses balance and holds to the door from the outside to stop hitting the car and to push himself away. These things happen. I have seen cyclist videos on youtube where a car door opened the moment a cyclist was passing and the cyclist slammed the door back and closed it.

Being a cyclist myself I once hit a car from behind because it was turning to a side road, I was going straight on the main road and I expected it to clear but it suddenly stopped. I hit it and broke it's tail light. I can image a cyclist watching the door close and thinking it will shut by the time but then it stops or even worse starts opening again. Yes the door doesn't open too far. It maybe adds only 20cm width but cyclists sometimes drive close to parked cars.

This page says surgery to reattaching a finger would cost $600.000 to $750.000. If there are even a few finger injuries how will this effect car insurance quotes for MX? If it becomes too expensive to insure nobody will drive it even if they don't have little kids. Of course families with little kids will stop driving it the moment first finger injuries hit the news. Was this falcon wing gimmick really necessary? I don't think it was.

 

[JRP3]

I suggest you do not buy a Model X.

 

[Johan]

I suggest you do not buy a Model X.

LOL.

 

[ElSupreme]

Honestly the only issue I am worried about with the Falcon Doors (granted I am not getting a Model X) is the speed in which they open. I know lots of minivans have auto sliding doors. And the time is probably comparable. But you can manually open those things. I'm not so sure with the Model X.

Other than that I am with bonnie, in thinking that these things will be basically as functional as a rear lift-gate. Which seem to work quite well.

 

[BlueTan85]

Other than that I am with bonnie, in thinking that these things will be basically as functional as a rear lift-gate. Which seem to work quite well.

I look at the Falcon Doors as "side lift-gates."

One thing people will have to get used to: when you've just come from Starbucks, latte in your hand, don't do what every Starbucks customer always does: place the cup on the roof of the car before getting into the car. Oh, it's going to be fun seeing the SuperCut video on YouTube of all the Starbucks drinks falling into Model X's....