Model X with child in drivers seat allegedly injures woman

[CFrolander]

I don't know why some people keep saying that there's no way a two year old could put the car in drive. They absolutely could. My Model X got hit by a DUI driver a few weeks ago so I'm waiting on the replacement, but I test fit my very own two year old in my Model 3 and he could easily easily put it in drive. The Model X is bigger, certainly, but it still would be super easy for him to do. For a kid to do this, you don't have to be sitting on the seat. A two year old can stand on the floor and hit the pedal and pull the lever, they can hang off the steering wheel, they can sit on the floor and press the lever and reach up high enough (In a model 3 or S, the X might be too high for that).

But they definitely could do it. And on the model X, And trigger the seat sensor too (It's very sensitive). In fact the second I put him in the car, this is how he sat down so he could hit brake and I have no doubt leaving my little troublemaker in the for more than a minute or two unsupervised he *would* have hit the brake and pulled to stock to try to put it into gear. And it's why we never let the kids play inside the cars (any cars, ever, not just the Teslas.)

Source: My test fit baby (note: I have pin to drive and nobody was in danger during my test)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I don't know why some people keep saying that there's no way a two year old could put the car in drive. They absolutely could. My Model X got hit by a DUI driver a few weeks ago so I'm waiting on the replacement, but I test fit my very own two year old in my Model 3 and he could easily easily put it in drive. The Model X is bigger, certainly, but it still would be super easy for him to do. For a kid to do this, you don't have to be sitting on the seat. A two year old can stand on the floor and hit the pedal and pull the lever, they can hang off the steering wheel, they can sit on the floor and press the lever and reach up high enough (In a model 3 or S, the X might be too high for that).

But they definitely could do it. And on the model X, And trigger the seat sensor too (It's very sensitive). In fact the second I put him in the car, this is how he sat down so he could hit brake and I have no doubt leaving my little troublemaker in the for more than a minute or two unsupervised he *would* have put it into gear. And it's why we never let the kids play inside the cars (any cars, ever, not just the Teslas.)

Source: My test fit baby

View attachment 414159

Thanks for helping people see this.

That was an exceedingly dangerous test. If you have creep mode on, all your child has to do in that picture is reach up and grab the stalk and pull down, and press the accelerator, and the car would have gone. There are no interlocks from entering drive (other than pressing the brake of course) as far as I can tell from my testing (I am using creep mode - it does seem to change the behavior - seems like no creep may be safer; I have not checked "no creep" but others have).

Obviously you were right there, so that's good, but do continue to be vigilant! EDIT: As covered below, you had PIN to drive on, so it is perfectly safe.

 

[Daniel in SD]

A key should never be left in a car that is accessible to an unsupervised toddler. A car should never be made accessible to an unsupervised toddler. Aren't those similar rules to a gun should never be outside a safe? Additionally, don't safes and gun locks require keys to operate? There is no difference. Carelessness with any item combined with the lack of any personal responsibility always ends with the same I'm a victim story.

Correct, there is no difference between a gun and a Model 3. That is why all responsible Tesla owners should keep their cars in a safe since the key IS NOT SUFFICIENT to prevent a 2 year old from driving the car. I've ordered mine:

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Correct, there is no difference between a gun and a Model 3. That is why all responsible Tesla owners should keep their cars in a safe since the key IS NOT SUFFICIENT to prevent a 2 year old from driving the car. I've ordered mine:
View attachment 414161

For convenience, and because all Tesla owners should do so, I plan to back in to my car safe when it arrives.

 

[CFrolander]

That was an exceedingly dangerous test.

Well I was standing right there, and I don't think he knows my PIN (or numbers at all), so I think we were fairly safe all things considered

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Well I was standing right there, and I don't think he knows my PIN (or numbers at all), so I think we were fairly safe all things considered

Oh good. 100% safe. PIN to drive is definitely the way to go if you have small children. It wasn't clear, since you said you had little doubt he would have put it into gear in a couple minutes unsupervised...

 

[CFrolander]

Oh good. 100% safe. PIN to drive is definitely the way to go if you have small children. It wasn't clear, since you said you had little doubt he would have put it into gear in a couple minutes unsupervised...

Ahh yes I can see that now, I meant more if he would have been able to do what the 2YO in the article did by hitting the brake and pulling the stalk into drive or reverse or neutral. I edited for clarity

 

[SammichLover]

For convenience, and because all Tesla owners should do so, I plan to back in to my car safe when it arrives.

Ah-men! Preach on, brother Alan!

Back in to GTFO**

**
Grasp
Tesla
Fundamental
Operation

P.S. As soon as I come up with a pithy slogan for using left-foot braking to do this I'll be adding that to the sermon rotation. <edit> Creative wording suggestions for this will be appreciated and entertained.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Preach on, brother!

Ha. I was being facetious. Personally I really don't care at all, but there are many situations where I find it easier to park by backing in. I drive forwards into my garage; I would not be able to charge otherwise, it's easier, and the car fits slightly more easily due to the curvature of the front bumper meshing with the angled wall in my garage.

 

[SammichLover]

Ha. I was being facetious. Personally I really don't care at all, but there are many situations where I find it easier to park by backing in. I drive forwards into my garage; I would not be able to charge otherwise, it's easier, and the car fits slightly more easily due to the curvature of the front bumper meshing with the angled wall in my garage.

My condolences that your charger is installed backwards. I’m fortunate that I started out sharing with not-Tesla EV so the charger was installed correctly for me, even if I hadn’t realized it at the time.

I have come to understand better. Extra fortunate for me since running to the door side of the garage would require a step up in wire gauge, exceeds 100’ run.

I’ve taken to helping the wife by parking in the very narrow side of the 3-car garage because its an awkward driveway, very long, narrow, and perpendicular to the garage, so backing in makes it easier even with the larger vehicle. I might have 3” clearance between the both sides total from the door frames.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

My condolences that your charger is installed backwards

I installed the Wall Connector exactly where I wanted it! The cable run from WC to vehicle to plug in is about 2-3 feet, and it rarely gets in the way. If I parked the other way it would be an obstruction or tripping hazard. And it would have been nearly impossible to wire up the Wall Connector as it would have required that I compromise the Fire-X sheetrock and shearwall separating the house from the garage, or run conduit, which would not have been compatible with the shelving on that wall.

I could have considered mounting the wall connector on the garage ceiling with a spring balancer, to avoid these problems, but that has been met with derision in these TMC parts.

 

[SammichLover]

I installed the Wall Connector exactly where I wanted it!

My condolences, brother.

I could have considered mounting the wall connector on the garage ceiling with a spring balancer, to avoid these problems, but that has been met with derision in these TMC parts.

Don’t let those short on vision hold you back. Lead by brave example.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Door open + no seatbelt + movement starts = always slam into P in my past experience.

I just went and moved my car for charging purposes, and wanted to update with findings WITHOUT creep. It's basically no different in behavior than with creep.

I also wanted to update/correct my prior posts regarding the manual. The manual talks about three conditions, two of which must be met, otherwise the car will go from Drive to Park (to prevent rollaway). Involves the door, seatbelt, and seat sensor.

What I did not distinguish earlier is that this part of the manual and these conditions are not relevant to this situation, as the same logic does not apply for a Park to Drive transition. The factors above are to prevent rollaway, so they are for the situation where you have been driving, and you then take off your seatbelt, open the door, etc. -> the car shifts to park in that case, automatically, as soon as only one condition or fewer holds. (You must have at least two of three conditions satisfied - door closed, seatbelt on, be in driver seat, to stay in drive.)

Anyway, summary, the above paragraph and the Owner's Manual information I quoted earlier is not relevant to this situation.

My Tesla Test:

Without creep, without PIN to drive, Model 3, 2019.12.1.2:
1) Leaving my phone on the ground outside the car, about 3 feet away
2) I got in the car, being careful not to sit on the seat (I am physically capable of bracing myself this way while performing other actions)
3) Left the driver door open.
4) Did not put my seat belt on.
5) Pressed the brake pedal, and then pulled down on the right stalk to engage drive.
6) Immediately, pushed the accelerator (but lightly).

The car moved just fine. It is ready to roll.

Notable: If you DELAY pressing the accelerator for any appreciable time (a second or two) in this state, after entering Drive, the car WILL automatically enter Park. The same happens with and without creep (but with creep of course it will creep forward a foot or so before parking). But if you're quick with the accelerator application, it will go.

I did not experiment with fast acceleration, for obvious reasons, for my test, or see how long/far/fast I could go in this unsafe condition.

I believe this is more than sufficient evidence to explain how this accident happened, and I think it is possible to have more aggressive safety interlocks from Tesla in this scenario. However, in the meantime, PIN to drive is a failsafe.

Feel free to verify these results if you would like. If your results differ, we can correct the record.

Contrast Test:

I have my Chevrolet Spark EV at work today as well, and I was moving it to get some free charge as well:

1) I left my key on the ground outside the car about 1 foot away, left the door open.
2) Pressed brake pedal, tried to turn on the "ignition" with the pushbutton start
3) Nothing happened - ding, ding, ding - error message saying "key not detected"

Summary:

If you have very young kids, PLEASE turn on PIN to drive. Obviously this does not work for kids who will learn your PIN and may not be able to be trusted. In those situations, I guess I would recommend disabling the phone as key function (if you have a Model 3 - this has been moved to the Model X forum now of course) and keeping the key card or key fob with you at all times.

 

[SammichLover]

I just went and moved my car for charging purposes, and wanted to update with findings WITHOUT creep. It's basically no different in behavior than with creep.

Guaranteed a change. Or there is another variable? Because I was kinda annoyed by the behavior,twice. Door open, belt off, tried pulling ahead (was working on the car, long story).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Or there is another variable?

You have to be quick with the accelerator after entering Drive. If you are slower than a 2-year-old, it will go into Park, as described above.

 

[SammichLover]

You have to be quick with the accelerator after entering Drive. If you are slower than a 2-year-old, it will go into Park, as described above.

Ah, so if I let it get to Hold then it’ll Park? But if I was younger & quicker I could accidentally drive over myself as I dive after the beer can I dropped out the open door?

Good to know incase I go Benjamin Button, or something.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Ah, so if I let it get to Hold then it’ll Park? But if I was younger & quicker I could accidentally drive over myself as I dive after the beer can I dropped out the open door?

Basically, yes, I think?

I am not familiar with the timing of Hold engagement in "Creep OFF" mode, as I don't usually operate in "Creep OFF" mode. If it is normal for "Creep OFF" mode to engage Hold about 1-2 seconds after entering Drive, with no pedal input, then yes. And with the scenario I was checking I would not have seen it since it would go to Park instead.

 

[SammichLover]

Teaser: I got LDA to turn on my 4-way hazards!

 

[Neon001]

Based on what happens in my car, it does not seem difficult at all for a two-year-old to kill someone with it.

I can start my Model 3 (12.1.2) and drive as follows:

Open driver door
No seat belt
Not sitting in driver’s seat!!! (NOTHING in the seat)

Literally NONE of the conditions that Tesla alleges are required, are actually required, at least some of the time.

This seems...bad.

Fascinating. If the published literature pertaining to vehicle operations pertinent to health and safety are incorrect in any way, Tesla absolutely deserves to be nailed to the wall over this.

I plan to test this with my model 3 tomorrow. There may be a pin to drive enabling in the offing...

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Fascinating. If the published literature pertaining to vehicle operations pertinent to health and safety are incorrect in any way, Tesla absolutely deserves to be nailed to the wall over this.

I plan to test this with my model 3 tomorrow. There may be a pin to drive enabling in the offing...

Do be careful with your testing!

Please see my above lengthy post from about an hour ago where I have corrected the record on this to some extent (what I said absolutely appears to be the case, but it is not actually contradicted in the manual), and done more of my own testing.

The manual does appear to be correct, but the situation discussed in the manual is not relevant to this situation. The manual is talking about Drive->Park transitions (to prevent accidental rollaway when parking). Of relevance here is what is required to transition from Park->Drive. There are very few protections in that case (the only protections I could detect was that if the accelerator is not pressed within a couple seconds of going into Drive, the car will go back to Park - and of course, the brake must be pressed to go into Drive).

It's easy to see how one could think the same interlocks apply in both situations (that's how I initially interpreted the manual), but they don't, and the manual is carefully written to describe only what you need to do to force the car into Park. And it talks about actual transitions (seat belt must transition from bucked to unbuckled), not states (seat belt is not buckled) to force the transition from Drive to Park - so that transition-based logic would not apply if you managed to get into Drive, and then none of the conditions change.

I don't know how much Tesla deserves to be "nailed to the wall", but I do think it's likely they will need to settle, and consider some additional safety measures to reduce the chances of this happening (it can probably not easily be entirely prevented, except with PIN to drive of course).