When a driver switches on FSD, they still remain fully responsible for the actions of their car. A prudent person will take manual control when they feel the Autopilot is struggling or in a challenging situation. Leaving Autopilot on, to see what it will do, still leaves you totally responsible for it's actions.
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Model Y Driving with FSD Accident
- Thread starter wildli
- Start date
fholbert
Active Member
People just don’t get it.
Several of my friends are airline pilots who fly aircraft with multimillion dollar autopilots. At no time, is the autopilot engaged that someone isn’t watching the autopilot and ready to assume manual control if the autopilot has an issue. Typically, one pilot is monitoring the autopilot, the other pilot is monitoring the pilot watching the autopilot.
In my single pilot aircraft it’s the same thing. I monitor the autopilot like the plane is being flown by a student. I’m continually cross checking what the plane is doing. It frees up some of the workload, but I’m still the pilot in command. Several years ago I was level at altitude and enroute for about hour when the plane suddenly rolled into a steep right turn. I overrode the system returning to course without Air Traffic Control even seeing the deviation on RADAR.
My point is, the Tesla driver needs to pay attention and be able to assume control is a split second. If you sitting behind the steering wheel you are the pilot on command, don‘t be a passenger.
Several of my friends are airline pilots who fly aircraft with multimillion dollar autopilots. At no time, is the autopilot engaged that someone isn’t watching the autopilot and ready to assume manual control if the autopilot has an issue. Typically, one pilot is monitoring the autopilot, the other pilot is monitoring the pilot watching the autopilot.
In my single pilot aircraft it’s the same thing. I monitor the autopilot like the plane is being flown by a student. I’m continually cross checking what the plane is doing. It frees up some of the workload, but I’m still the pilot in command. Several years ago I was level at altitude and enroute for about hour when the plane suddenly rolled into a steep right turn. I overrode the system returning to course without Air Traffic Control even seeing the deviation on RADAR.
My point is, the Tesla driver needs to pay attention and be able to assume control is a split second. If you sitting behind the steering wheel you are the pilot on command, don‘t be a passenger.
FSD driver really has to be alert and take over before it is trying to do a dangerous maneuver, case in point - in this junction, lots of the time FSD beta will drive on the left most lane until it reaches the fork (white truck location), almost came to a complete stop and then slowly turn into the fork. The problem is traffic around me on the service road is usually at 50-60 mph. Even if it is on the right lane, it won't slow down and cut into the turn lane, it just drives till the fork, slam on the brake and cut into the fork. Normal human usually slows down much earlier and cutting into the turn lane whenever it can.
Tam
Well-Known Member
It doesn't know if a driver is fit for FSD. It believes disclosures are legally sufficient.
I would say so. The car should not allow FSD for those who were not trained. The camera should detect it's an unfit driver and reject activation.
it's a gamble of risking accidents for the benefits of an unfished product.
This is a red flag for the insurance company.
And how could your wife ignore the no seat belt warning when using FSD? The driver is supposed to ensure the safety of the passengers.
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Most of my manual or auto FSD disengagements are related to making protected or unprotected right turns. The car tends to swing to the left and almost cross to its left lane to make right turn. The car also often get to close to the car at the intersection on the new street. I am always ready to take control at those situations. The car does very well with protected left turns.
I'm glad somebody who actually uses an autopilot has chimed in. Hell, a general aviation autopilot will fly a plane into a mountain and stall itself out of the sky trying to maintain the parameters a pilot has set. Tesla didn't to itself any favors marketing lane keep and cruise control as "autopilot". What's even more nuts is that for the price of "full self driving" you could be trained as a private pilot!
As folks said, get a traffic attorney to help out with the court case. May not dismiss it entirely, but it can help reduce the potential fines.
As for insurance premiums, I wouldn’t worry about it at this point. Any raises would only come after the first couple of renewal periods, or it may not even be raised at all. Can’t predict what insurance companies will do. So deal with what you can at this point, and all the best
As for insurance premiums, I wouldn’t worry about it at this point. Any raises would only come after the first couple of renewal periods, or it may not even be raised at all. Can’t predict what insurance companies will do. So deal with what you can at this point, and all the best
I’d expect substantial increase (since this will be 100% driver’s fault) and that the increase will remain for 5 years. You actually can predict what insurance companies will do (worked for them for over a decade) and if you call your agent they can probably tell you what the damage will be; a good friend of mine got into a fender bender and called his agent. He was furious to lean that the $1200 damage he did to the other car was going to cost him $1500 in increased fees (so he paid for the damage out of pocket).
That is the same thing almost every person that experiences a SUA, Sudden Unintended Acceleration, events says. "I'm sure I pressed the brakes, not the accelerator" after having driven into a build while trying to park in front of it. From what I have seen every time it was investigate it was found that their memory was wrong and that they actually floored the accelerator.
You should request the data from Tesla, maybe it would shed some additional light on the situation. (Assuming it got uploaded before the low voltage battery died.) https://www.tesla.com/support/privacy
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Tesla was actually quite accurate with the term ‘autopilot.’ Whether they intended to be that accurate or not I don’t know, but the problem is the general has no idea what autopilot on a plane really is.
I had an at fault claim of 11k recently, the increase upon renewal is 14% for Tesla insurance, I am not even sure if this is because of the accident or normal adjustment. The 11k definitely is more than all my premium added together since I join and Tesla claimed accidents do not count towards premium .... I doubted when you call Tesla insurance they will be able to tell you.
CrazyRabbit
Active Member
Thanks to all posts here.
I just found Tesla recalled Autopilot issue this morning.
jalopnik.com
I guess this is not about our collision related with FSD; probably it is something else, am I correct?
I just found Tesla recalled Autopilot issue this morning.
Tesla Recalls Millions Of Vehicles Over Autopilot Safety Issues
Also, two Tesla Model 3s are going to lose their $7,500 EV tax credit, and GM is extending some assembly plant downtime.
jalopnik.com
I guess this is not about our collision related with FSD; probably it is something else, am I correct?
Correct, it is about ensuring that the drive is paying attention. Not about misapplication of pedals, which is what I firmly believe happened in your collision.
If you have been driving in the US for 20 years then there is a lot of muscle memory in one's driving. I honestly believe when the car made the turn your wife went to hit the brakes because she didn't think it was going to clear the stone wall. In doing so, because her foot wasn't already in position to press either pedal because the car was driving, she hit the go-pedal by accident.
For me, using FSDbeta means having to override that muscle memory (OMG! it isn't slowing down for the red light! OMG! it isn't in the correct lane! OMG! I'm 1km away from my exit and it just changed lanes away from the exit lane! OMG! it just dove into that short exit lane off this highway thinking it was now the right lane, the traffic that was behind me is now beside me and I'm heading for the shoulder because the car can't possible make the curve on this exit at full highway speed!)
I choose not to override that muscle memory. I credit that with why I have 47 years of driving with no moving violations or accidents. I have a strong instinct to not be in a crash. So I don't use FSDbeta on city streets and I only use it on controlled access highways with enough supervision to avoid disengagements,=, and on two-way undivided highways with high supervision (because it likes to dive into right hand turn lanes or slam on the brakes when it sees a truck coming towards us on a curve and interprets that it is my lane, not the oncoming lane.)
Your wife's accident shows just how untrustworthy FSDb is.
And exactly how dangerous it is without active supervision.
I taught 3 kids how to drive and have the grey hair to prove it. There's no effin way I'm teaching Elon's baby how to drive as well.
Edited to say why I think she pressed the wrong pedal.
For me, using FSDbeta means having to override that muscle memory (OMG! it isn't slowing down for the red light! OMG! it isn't in the correct lane! OMG! I'm 1km away from my exit and it just changed lanes away from the exit lane! OMG! it just dove into that short exit lane off this highway thinking it was now the right lane, the traffic that was behind me is now beside me and I'm heading for the shoulder because the car can't possible make the curve on this exit at full highway speed!)
I choose not to override that muscle memory. I credit that with why I have 47 years of driving with no moving violations or accidents. I have a strong instinct to not be in a crash. So I don't use FSDbeta on city streets and I only use it on controlled access highways with enough supervision to avoid disengagements,=, and on two-way undivided highways with high supervision (because it likes to dive into right hand turn lanes or slam on the brakes when it sees a truck coming towards us on a curve and interprets that it is my lane, not the oncoming lane.)
Your wife's accident shows just how untrustworthy FSDb is.
And exactly how dangerous it is without active supervision.
I taught 3 kids how to drive and have the grey hair to prove it. There's no effin way I'm teaching Elon's baby how to drive as well.
Edited to say why I think she pressed the wrong pedal.
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sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Several years ago there was a rash of reports of unintended acceleration in Toyotas. It was all over the news and there were reports claiming the accelerator was getting stuck on the floor mats and drivers were powerless to stop it along with multiple other reports by drivers who got into crashes who swore up and down they tried using the brakes and they didn’t work because the accelerator was stuck.
More recently there was a podcast that took an in depth look at this. They actually took some cars to a test strip and floored the accelerator then tried to stop the car using the brakes while keeping the accelerator floored. In every case the car stopped. They could not document a single instance where the brake was not able to overcome the accelerator and the conclusion they arrived at was that the drivers were actually pressing the accelerator unintentionally, thinking they were pressing the brake.
One sees this phenomenon over and over again with people in stressful situations. They unwittingly double down on a mistaken action because in the moment they can’t/don’t recognize the mistake.
More recently there was a podcast that took an in depth look at this. They actually took some cars to a test strip and floored the accelerator then tried to stop the car using the brakes while keeping the accelerator floored. In every case the car stopped. They could not document a single instance where the brake was not able to overcome the accelerator and the conclusion they arrived at was that the drivers were actually pressing the accelerator unintentionally, thinking they were pressing the brake.
One sees this phenomenon over and over again with people in stressful situations. They unwittingly double down on a mistaken action because in the moment they can’t/don’t recognize the mistake.
