Model Y vs Mustang Mach E

[pt19713]

I can see how you may not like the calculation procedure. I see nothing that shows Tesla is doing anything illegal such as VW did on it's diesel testing and that Ford was sued for doing on it's diesel trucks or that they admitted to doing on their CMax hybrids. Ditto Hyundai and Kia and their settlement with the U.S.government. Again I don't think that there is a single manufacturer that doesn't evaluate their vehicle by every permissible method to find the one that gives the best results.

Read my posts above again. I never said anything about their process being illegal.

Here's my quote if you don't want to scroll back up.
"Perfectly legal based upon the process."

99.9% of the consumer public has no clue on the process so yeah, Tesla and Audi are using that to their advantage to stretch out the EPA mileage figure by using the additional urban cycles. Ford chose not to do this, which is why their rating is more realistic than Tesla's, which is the whole point of the discussion.

I'm not a Ford fan boy, which is obvious if you're viewing on a desktop browser and can see my signature.

 

[73Bruin]

Yes, they still do. Tesla uses the combined rating in their marketing materials.

Just like Ford does on their web page. And the Tesla city and highway numbers are easily found if you want to look at them.

 

[Cleo-n-Company]

I know it's always a bother when reality intrudes on the conversation.

While I can't comment on real-world experience of the Mach-E...

My 2013 P85+

265 mile advertised range

Owner reality 206 mile range average = 77.7% of expected / advertised range

Based on 4 years mix highway/street in the Sacramento region

Family member Nissan Leaf

225 mile advertised range

Owner reality 221 mile range average = 98.2% of expected / advertised range

Based on 2 years mix highway/street in the Bay Area

Tiny sample size of course - but often times these little "real world" glimpses do illuminate...

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I can see how you may not like the calculation procedure. I see nothing that shows Tesla is doing anything illegal such as VW did on it's diesel testing and that Ford was sued for doing on it's diesel trucks or that they admitted to doing on their CMax hybrids. Ditto Hyundai and Kia and their settlement with the U.S.government. Again I don't think that there is a single manufacturer that doesn't evaluate their vehicle by every permissible method to find the one that gives the best results.

The CMax Hybrid rating itself wasn't illegal, just unethical. Under the rules, because the CMax Hybrid had the same powertrain as the Fusion, they were allowed to use Fusion Hybrid data. But the CMax, being taller and far less aerodynamic was never going to be able to hit the Fusion's numbers. The EPA changed their rules to prevent it happening in the future.

Ford lowers C-Max hybrid's mpg rating, offers rebates

 

[Smitty22211]

Also remember that not all Ford dealers are yet participating in the Mach E, so you may need to go to a specific dealer for issues.

People tempted to wait for a Mach E should also be keenly aware of dealer markup. The current demand for the Mach E is constrained (good for Ford) and dealers are taking advantage of this bottle neck. Ford Mustang Mach-E: Dealers Reportedly Adding $15,000 Markup Over MSRP

So, that $7500 tax break could easily evaporate thanks to the car stealership model.

Who knows how long you will need to wait too. Ford is only making 50k Mach E’s this year. That’s a drop in the bucket compared to Tesla’s capacity.


[/QUOTE]
All excellent points.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Dude! Most obnoxious video ever.

LOL, you need to get out more.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Again I don't think that there is a single manufacturer that doesn't evaluate their vehicle by every permissible method to find the one that gives the best results.

Incorrect.

Porsche stated flat out that they didn't with the Taycan. They ran the minimum number of tests and applied the correction factor. That's why people routinely beat the Taycan's advertised range. By a lot.

 

[Needsdecaf]

I know it's always a bother when reality intrudes on the conversation.

While I can't comment on real-world experience of the Mach-E...

My 2013 P85+

265 mile advertised range

Owner reality 206 mile range average = 77.7% of expected / advertised range

Based on 4 years mix highway/street in the Sacramento region

Family member Nissan Leaf

225 mile advertised range

Owner reality 221 mile range average = 98.2% of expected / advertised range

Based on 2 years mix highway/street in the Bay Area

Tiny sample size of course - but often times these little "real world" glimpses do illuminate...

They most certainly do.

Taycan 4S Range Rating has been raised to 227 Miles. Used to be just over 200.

Over 275 Miles real world:

264 Miles:

Taycan Turbo, which is rated under 200 miles, goes 217 miles with indicated 80 miles remaining:

 

[73Bruin]

I know it's always a bother when reality intrudes on the conversation.

While I can't comment on real-world experience of the Mach-E...

My 2013 P85+

265 mile advertised range

Owner reality 206 mile range average = 77.7% of expected / advertised range

Based on 4 years mix highway/street in the Sacramento region

Family member Nissan Leaf

225 mile advertised range

Owner reality 221 mile range average = 98.2% of expected / advertised range

Based on 2 years mix highway/street in the Bay Area

Tiny sample size of course - but often times these little "real world" glimpses do illuminate...

Anecdotal testimony can mask reality. I could easily exceed the highway and combined EPA estimates for my 2005 Toyota Prius as long as I kept my speed on the freeway under 75. I did it for years carpooling to work in an HOV lane (2005 to 2014). Going above 80 did serious damage to those numbers. Some nights when I drove solo and worked late, I would play a game and set the cruise control at 62 (above the EPA tested 55), I could drive home in the slow lane and exceed 52mpg for a 37 mile freeway and 5 mile city drive (Irvine to Torrance with little or no changes in elevation). On the other hand, I could never ever get close to the EPA numbers for city driving. Ditto every other car that I have owned. FWIW, my light-footed wife prefers the Prius to her 2010 Honda Civic and routinely exceeds the EPA combined estimates of 46mpg in a 15yr old car with a degraded battery. As my final note on this subject, IIRC the EPA made Toyota lower its initial MPG ratings for the Prius as well.

 

[pt19713]

I don't see what you're trying to convey to us. We're talking the EPA ratings of Tesla and Ford. We don't care about Prius, Civic,etc. I've always beat the EPA ratings on every car I've owned. No one here cares. Irrelevant to what's being discussed the last 2 pages. Tesla fudge factor vs Ford's more realistic figure.

 

[Needsdecaf]

I don't see what you're trying to convey to us. We're talking the EPA ratings of Tesla and Ford. We don't care about Prius, Civic,etc. I've always beat the EPA ratings on every car I've owned. No one here cares. Irrelevant to what's being discussed the last 2 pages. Tesla fudge factor vs Ford's more realistic figure.

Exactly.

If you look at the videos posted, only Alex Roy in the Taycan Turbo drove in Range mode. (Did Bjorn also, can't recall). Moreover, Matt from Smoking Tire did NOT, and drove normal highway speeds with the active cruise on and crushed the EPA rating. If I do that in my "290 mile" Performance, cruising at 78 MPH, I'm lucky to see 200 miles. Not the other way around.

I've thought about this, and my conclusion is that Teslas efficiency is mainly in the drivetrain. So at speeds where aero isn't critical (and on the EPA test, they are non-existent) you can get close or slightly above Tesla's EPA range. Whatever factor the EPA uses to calculate wind drag from the dyno runs isn't enough to catch up with how super-efficient Teslas are at lower speed.

At highway speed, Tesla's physics are the same as anyone else's as their slipperiness isn't all that much better, and aero drag is far beyond mechanical drag. Here's where cars like the Taycan BEAT the EPA range and the Tesla falls down rapidly.

Remember, the EPA test (which is done almost always by the manufacturers to published standards, not by the EPA) is done on a dyno. So any wind resistance losses are calculated, not actually measured.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Nobody is going to beat EPA range when cruising at 80 mph+

 

[iamnid]

Here's a pretty good video that breaks down how EV manufacturers come up with their range numbers.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Nobody is going to beat EPA range when cruising at 80 mph+

Both Inside EV's and The Smoking Tire CRUSHED the EPA range cruising at 70. I bet with a set cruise of 80 they would have still beat it. Certainly they wouldn't have been more than 25% below it, as I am in my Model 3. That would have worked out to about 180 miles of range using the 4S's then EPA rating. Almost 100 miles less than they actually got. I don't think going from 70 to 80 would have cost them 100 miles of range even if drag does increase at the square of speed.

 

[Uncle Paul]

70 mph is not 80 mph.

 

[Needsdecaf]

70 mph is not 80 mph.

I am 100% aware of that. See my post above. Upping their speed 10 MPH would NOT have cost them 100 miles of range.

 

[Cleo-n-Company]

I don't see what you're trying to convey to us. We're talking the EPA ratings of Tesla and Ford. We don't care about Prius, Civic,etc. I've always beat the EPA ratings on every car I've owned. No one here cares. Irrelevant to what's being discussed the last 2 pages. Tesla fudge factor vs Ford's more realistic figure.

Geez... don't have to be so rude to the poor guy.

 

[Cleo-n-Company]

Also remember that not all Ford dealers are yet participating in the Mach E, so you may need to go to a specific dealer for issues.

People tempted to wait for a Mach E should also be keenly aware of dealer markup. The current demand for the Mach E is constrained (good for Ford) and dealers are taking advantage of this bottle neck. Ford Mustang Mach-E: Dealers Reportedly Adding $15,000 Markup Over MSRP

So, that $7500 tax break could easily evaporate thanks to the car stealership model.

Who knows how long you will need to wait too. Ford is only making 50k Mach E’s this year. That’s a drop in the bucket compared to Tesla’s capacity.

All excellent points.[/QUOTE]
That article you're referring to is from June 2020 - so I'm not sure how applicable that markup may be as we speak.

But no way in hell I'd pay more than MSRP for any car out there. Never did - never will.

But... I will say... if demand greatly exceeds supply for Mach-E - the rhetorical question is... Tesla look at thyself in the mirror.

If buyers are more willing to wait in line for a Ford instead of buying a Tesla today - that's a problem for the Fremont gang.

 

[pt19713]

But... I will say... if demand greatly exceeds supply for Mach-E - the rhetorical question is... Tesla look at thyself in the mirror.

If buyers are more willing to wait in line for a Ford instead of buying a Tesla today - that's a problem for the Fremont gang.

Tesla should be worried because there are potential buyers that went with the Mach-E because of Tesla's poor quality reputation. But, most just hate how ugly the Y is lol

 

[Cleo-n-Company]

Tesla should be worried because there are potential buyers that went with the Mach-E because of Tesla's poor quality reputation. But, most just hate how ugly the Y is lol

Yeah - it's a problem when your X and your Y are both ugly. It's a DNA thing or something...