My 2 day old P85D suddenly died in the middle of an intersection

[dhanson865]

TrueDelta claims 97,000 survey participants, Consumer Reports 1.1 million. I'm more inclined to trust Consumer Reports' data to not be skewed.

TrueDelta's data collection methodology differs form other publications such as Consumer Reports. Consumer Reports compiles data from reader surveys once annually while Truedelta.com takes monthly surveys and issues quarterly reports. Truedelta also differs in that it asks if a vehicle needed unscheduled service, how many days the vehicle was in the shop, and whether the problem was corrected.

Consumer reports has some seriously flawed methodology and hides it well. It's beyond the scope of this thread but I trust truedelta more than CR. If you truly care take a look at some of these

TrueDelta | Blog reliability ratings The numbers behind Consumer Reports’ reliability ratings
TrueDelta | Blog in Consumer Reports “Declining reliability” in Consumer Reports
Unexplained anomalies withinConsumer Reports Unexplained anomalies within Consumer Reports

The key is if you are into cars that sell in small numbers CR will give you a ball and no warning that their numbers are statistically invalid (not enough data to make an accurate call). Hmm luxury cars, EVs, hybrids, aren't we the crowd that is always looking at smaller data sets to begin with? TD will tell you if the sample is 0, too small, small but unreliable, big enough to not warn, and you can even see the exact numbers and decide if you agree with the warnings or lack there of.

If you think the flat gross number of surveys returned makes CRs data of 5 owners of vehicle X better than TDs data of 5 owners of vehicle X you have some serious blinders on as to how the data for cars that aren't X don't apply to car X.

 

[tga]

Consumer reports has some seriously flawed methodology and hides it well.

I think there's some serious selection bias in CR's methodology. People with issues are more likely to complain, which skews the data.

I am keeping my car. My wife's P85D is going back. She wants an ICE SUV. We are going to look at the 2015 Porsche Cayenne S or Diesel.

A friend of mine has the diesel and is very happy with it.

 

[NigelM]

Mod note: discussion on idioms went here.

 

[russman]

I read this entire thread and I feel for Osama.

My car has been in for service for 6 times for various issues. Tesla has done everything can to fix the little items I have had. I haven't had a major issue failure on the road. If I did, I would start to think I had a lemon. As a matter of fact, I worry that my wife (who loves the car), is annoyed by the fact that it's been in for service 6 times in less than a year.

When people ask me if I like the car, I always answer honestly. I love the car, but it has had issues and Tesla is still a new company. I would buy the car again in a heartbeat but worry about what happens when the car is out of warranty.

I do find it disturbing that so many people are attacking someone who bought 2 Teslas, had one with a catastrophic failure and people want to respond with "I haven't had an issue." This applies to everything.... **** happens. I do feel it seems to be happening more for Tesla and hope they fix things in order to go mainstream, but we as supporters of them need to point out the good with the bad, that's the only way for a company to get better.

Osama: I hope your car is free of issues and you love it!

For myself, I'm hoping I've seen the last of the service center for a while.... but I just noticed my trunk slams sometimes instead of slowing being retracted in....

 

[Andyw2100]

For myself, I'm hoping I've seen the last of the service center for a while.... but I just noticed my trunk slams sometimes instead of slowing being retracted in....

Well, perhaps this will make your day: there's a thread on that, and it sounds like you're not alone, and that a change was made recently, and it may be by design. Check it out here: Liftgate Slamming Shut with Firmware V6.0

 

[mknox]

When people ask me if I like the car, I always answer honestly. I love the car, but it has had issues and Tesla is still a new company. I would buy the car again in a heartbeat but worry about what happens when the car is out of warranty.

I would consider myself in this camp as well. I usually also add that the Tesla staff bend over backwards to assist you when issues do crop up.

 

[onasj]

I'm glad Osama and his family are ok, and am grateful that he shared the details of this incident with the forum community.

To me, the most important questions are:

1) Did Tesla resolve the situation to Osama's satisfaction, and how did they do so (both mechanically and financially)?

2) What caused the failure of Osama's car? To what extent does this defect in your P85D inform the possibility that other P85Ds are also defective?

3) What will Tesla do to minimize the chance that this failure happens, to you or to any of us, in the future?

Osama's opinions about Tesla as a company, his cars, or how he chooses to resolve the situation are really his own business, and I respect his choices. However, what's really important, to me at least, are the above questions.

 

[wk057]

I would consider myself in this camp as well. I usually also add that the Tesla staff bend over backwards to assist you when issues do crop up.

I figured I'll share my experience with Tesla service. So far they have nothing but praise from me.

The most major issue I've had with the car is when I had an issue with my 3G not working. So, no navigation, slacker, web, mobile app control, etc. (I worked around this with a WiFi hotspot in the frunk temporarily, however.) Since it was not a critical issue (my words, not Tesla's) I waited about a month to get it into service. Devon, PA service center handles a huge geographic area, and so it is expected that they'll be a bit overworked. OK, no biggie. My hotspot workaround was fine in the meantime and my car was functional and usable.

Finally got it in for service on schedule (valet from my house, didn't want a loaner since I didn't really need one and I'm sure someone with an emergency might have), they fixed it, and brought it back the next day at the same time (right after I was done work both days).

Worked fine when I went out that night. But about 24 hours later I had the same issue.

Called them up at ~7PM. The delightful front office woman there put me on hold for < 5 minutes, came back and asked, "Would it be OK if we sent someone to pick up the car right now?" to which I replied, "That would be awesome." Within 40 minutes the car was being loaded back up at my house, which is impressive considering Devon, PA is 40 minutes away on a good day with no traffic.

They brought her back the next afternoon. They had replaced the whole center screen unit this time. Problem was resolved.

Unfortunately a few days later the screen started acting crazy (phantom touches and such making it unusable for a while at times). Called Devon again. They again were able to grab the car in under an hour from my call. It was ~early afternoon. I didn't say either way on a loaner this time, and they brought me one this time (happened to be a virtually identical P85 to mine, VIN3xxxx IIRC).

Got a call a few hours later and it was done. They replaced the center screen again and had an engineer at Freemont diagnose the software and everything on the new screen. Turns out some mismatch happened that was related to a failed update to v6.0 back when I had my first screen with the bad 3G (I updated from WiFi, and it did say "Update failed," but I had all of the 6.0 features). Some module didn't get updated due to the faulty 3G module, but the majority of the update worked. When they followed normal procedure the first time when replacing the screen they copied things from the old screen (to save my preferences and nav locations and the like) and must have inadvertently copied the badly updated software from the one module.

I was actually out when they called and was a little while from being home, so we scheduled the valet swap for when I was expected back a couple of hours later. Got home, did the swap, had my freshly cleaned car back.

While it kind of sucks it took a few trips to get it sorted out, the service center really went out of their way to make sure they got me taken care of. Being a hardware/software dev, I personally don't see how they could have done any better.

Keep in mind that while they worked on the car I was never really inconvenienced. They came to my house and picked it up. They came to my house and brought it back. They brought me a nearly identical car to use in it's place while they had mine. (The last time, and I really didn't need a loaner since my fiance's Model S was available to me.) I never set foot in or near the Devon service center until just recently when I picked up my P85D. My cost for this great service? $0.

For comparison, the local Mercedes service center will valet for a fee (think it is ~$80) and they'll arrange a rental vehicle that I'd pay for... BMW was about the same, although only second hand experiences noted there.

While of course anyone would prefer to never need to have their car in for service, I think it is worth noting that with Tesla the experience is completely painless. All cars break. Remember that. I've never had a single vehicle that has not had some problem, and I've had dozens of vehicles from various manufacturers... some new, some used. Overall, my experiences with Tesla will probably have me pretty loyal to them for my auto needs in the future. They certainly have some communication issues on the sales side of things, but for the service end definitely top notch.

 

[wayner]

(I worked around this with a WiFi hotspot in the frunk temporarily, however.)

This is rather OT, but how did you power that wifi hotspot in the frunk? Are there USB or cig lighter outlets in the frunk? Does the Model S have any power outlets anywhere other than on the centre console? In the rear trunk? In the back seat?

 

[tdelta1000]

Tesla should make their own 12V so they can control the quality. I hear about 12V lead acid quality problems too often.

I agree.

 

[wk057]

This is rather OT, but how did you power that wifi hotspot in the frunk? Are there USB or cig lighter outlets in the frunk? Does the Model S have any power outlets anywhere other than on the centre console? In the rear trunk? In the back seat?

I wired a 12V->USB adapter (not a generic one, a meant-to-be-wired one) to the fuse box and routed the USB into the frunk.

 

[Pollux]

I have to say, although I'm as big a tesla fan boy as anyone

As am I. When Tesla still had brochures to hand out, I'd go down to the store and get the store manager to give me a stack so that I could hand them out.

last year I had the exact same thing happen to me, with my 4 year old daughter in the back. It was sunny san diego and I was able to pull over no problem. I posted in the TM forum in the private section and I was absolutely eviscerated. People would have lynched me if they could. Same old tired arguments as people are putting in Tesla defense.

Real problems happening to real people. In my case, I've also experienced similar problems with Tesla traction packs and drive units. And as for ICE cars failing unexpectedly while in operation... I've had clutches blow out, had friends' cars dent their hoods from rods blowing out, radiators leak and overheat, the usual litany of woes that we've become inured to in ICE vehicles.

At this point I don't think there is any defense for Tesla and I hope they get their act together ASAP.

It's still a new company and still a new car. Tesla competes in an industry characterized by 100-year old companies. There has been no successful American automobile startup in, what... 80 years? I am amazed that the quality level is at high as it is, and suspect that it is much higher than we here at TMC can see. As others have noted repeatedly, it is the problems that get reported here, not the successes.

In my opinion, Tesla partly addresses any reliability issues by delivering fanatical customer support through its Service Centers and Rangers. In some ways, it bothers me more that Osama's reported experience when the car failed doesn't match up to the amazing stories others have reported when in need of help.

Can't blame Osama for ditching the P85D (a beta version of a final car IMO)

I don't blame him either, and would even agree with your characterization of the P85D as a beta release based on the anecdotes I've read in this forum at at TM. Osama has to give top consideration to the needs and opinions of his wife. While I would wish that she would try again, it's absolutely her call (and his).

until they can demonstrate that electric cars are fundamentally more reliable than ICE (a Musk motto, but so far the data doesnt support this).

I have to disagree with you completely on this point. I can't regard TMC reports as solid data. I believe without proof that there is authoritative data available on Model S failures, and that that data is at Tesla HQ. Consumer Reports might have decent data, but hard to be sure given survey and reporting biases. I don't believe that the TMC "data" support much of anything, either positive or negative, about the car's failure rates.

I wish Tesla would set a new industry precedent by publishing their failure data set... but would be surprised to see that happen.

Alan

 

[flankspeed8]

What an absolute crap situation from Osama to be in. I applaud his commitment and understand his wife's skepticism. I don't own a Tesla yet, but do own a Volt. Unfortunately on the Volt forums there are threads of brand new cars having HV issues as they are driving away from the dealer. It happens. My experience with the Volt has been stellar, except for the ERDTT, but that is foreign to any pure BEV owner which is why my next car will be a Tesla.

P.S. worst new car I have ever had was a 2003 Saab 9-3. First summer I had it it had to be towed out of my driveway 3 times! As a Naval Officer, I could not risk getting stranded and possibly missing a ships movement or watch so I got rid of that car as soon as I could. I swore off another GM product FOR EVER. 11 years later, I reneged and got the Volt.

 

[tbleakne]

The car was parked outside on the driveway for no more than an hour. My wife dropped of our son for his swim team practice and come home and left the car outside. An hour later, I took her car (mine was charging in the garage) and picked up our son and half way home the car broke down. Total time from leaving the house to pick up my son and back is approx. 25 minutes. Interior was warm.

The car was charged to 90% this morning before my wife took the kids to school.

What precautions should I take???

We are still in the mild part of winter here. What is going to happen when we get -22C early tomorrow morning?

It sounds like you are already doing the most basic precaution of always leaving the car plugged in overnight. The car is programmed to heat the battery pack from wall power when desirable due to ambient temperature, but when unplugged only take energy from the battery when absolutely necessary.

Even better than just being plugged-in in my opinion is to arrange at least a small charge every cold night. Set the charge current low so you get at least an hour or more of charge even if you are fairly full. Charging heats the pack directly. I am not suggesting you go over 90% however.

I have no direct experience with temperatures as low as you experience, and I don't know what to suggest with respect to the 12V battery, except that charging the pack will also activate the 12V charger. Does your local Service Center have any other advice for extra cold nights? Are special 12V batteries available ?

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Does anybody know how I could buy this car? Sounds like bad delivery prep. Once they fix this minor issue this car will be awesome. Is there an issue buying a canada car for use in the usa?

 

[apacheguy]

Boy did this thread pick up some serious traction. Guys, this is hardly the first time something like this has happened. As someone suggested up thread, it was likely the contactors that flipped. Not the 12V.

@osama - Would you mind updating us as to what the service center said?

 

[Ohm's Law]

The problem I see here is not that **** happens with new technology, maybe it was the cold temperature or maybe it was the assembly guy high on pot, who knows!

What matters is how Tesla dealt with it. As cold as it was, there should be no reason for this bad experience.

I know someone who owned an S AMG, the local service managers came to his house the next day and apologized. They personally delivered a replacement car and delivered a brand new S to make up for the failed engined which left him stranded.

The Model PSD is not a cheap car, I would say it is a little less than an AMG, raise your service level so Osama would actually have good things to say about how you handled the situation than how scared we all are about the reliability of Tesla vehicles which has made this thread go to 18 pages.

Fire the guy who made him wait 30 minutes for a tow truck in this cold weather to start with.

 

[apacheguy]

Fire the guy who made him wait 30 minutes for a tow truck in this cold weather to start with.

Uh, huh. And what exactly do you propose to do? If the nearest SvC was 30 miles away then even if they jumped in a car and drove right out to him it still would have taken 30 mins. That's just life. Same thing for flat tires and general car failures. Nothing is perfect.

I think we should all wait to hear back from Osama regarding his experience with service and reserve judgement until then.

 

[Andyw2100]

Fire the guy who made him wait 30 minutes for a tow truck in this cold weather to start with.

Uh, huh. And what exactly do you propose to do? If the nearest SvC was 30 miles away then even if they jumped in a car and drove right out to him it still would have taken 30 mins. That's just life.

This is like some crazy game of telephone where the story gets changed down the line. The funny thing is the original story is right there, in the first post.

Osama didn't wait 30 minutes for a tow truck. The 30 minutes was how long his DS spent on hold, waiting for the guy from roadside assistance, who was presumably trying to arrange the tow truck. The tow truck was then going to take another hour, but Osama did not wait for it. (You can go all the way back to the first post if you want to find out how Osama got home.)

This was a bad situation, no doubt about it. But firing people who were undoubtedly trying to do their best at the time? Come on!

The roadside assistance person was probably working his butt off trying to arrange a tow-truck the entire time he had the DS on hold. I think there's even a chance he came back to him from time to time, but of course I don't know that. I'm willing to bet he didn't take his 15 minute break while the DS was on hold, though. I expect it was a pretty frenzied 30 minutes for that roadside assistance operator. So I say we let him keep his job, OK?

 

[wayner]

Does anyone know how Tesla roadside assistance works? Do they just contract with local tow truck drivers - the same drivers used by CAA, and all the other roadside assistance services? If that is the case then the 30 minute drive isn't surprising. Tons of people have cars that won't start when it gets really cold so demand >>>> supply.