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My experience taking Tesla to court about FSD
- Thread starter edb49
- Start date
Just to flag up, I'm pretty sure that Tesla's website at some point said, "All Tesla vehicles have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances”. The "almost all circumstances" was something I considered when putting together my case, because in my experience there were quite a few circumstances the hardware limited Autopilot, e.g: Low sun, rain at night, condensation, salt/grit from roads blocking the cameras just over the course of a single journey. This seems to be partly confirmed by what you say above, e.g. Tesla have now added better cameras, heaters & ventilation to HW4. My thinking was that this could demonstrate the hardware wasn't suitable for FSD in "almost all circumstances" and have a legal claim that way.
In the end, my case was resolved before the court hearing and witness statement exchange so I never needed to refine the arguments... and my primary argument was the simplest/strongest one, so I was focused on that.
There's a chance that someone at Tesla is reading this, and if so I suspect they will take a different approach in future to the one they took with my claim... whether that's earlier settlement, a different defence, who knows. I'm not sure therefore how much further help my experiences can be that I've not already put up here, as I think they'll change how they react. This is quite a good opportunity for me to "sign off" and let everyone take their own journey forward, it's clear from the posts on this thread there's lots of interest and also knowledge to share around. I've put a chunk of time into answering people's questions but I don't want to do so indefinitely. I'm genuinely surprised how much interest this has had, and many thanks to everyone who's made a kind comment about it.
Finally, for balance... I have been mostly happy with the car. I'm disappointed I ended up issuing a court claim against Tesla and that we couldn't work out things before it got to that point.
Pagemakers
Active Member
In 2019 look what Musk states about HW2 cars and FSD.
www.zdnet.com
Elon Musk: Older Tesla cars set for full self-driving chip upgrade in Q4
Elon Musk teases the full self-driving computer upgrade.
www.zdnet.com
We don't have laws in this country to allow a full self driving car at the moment, I think Tesla would easily win any claim on the grounds that they are delivering the maximum allowable under UK law and upcoming depends on things beyond their control. It's been talked about as coming soon from DoT for several years, but obviously won't really appear before the next election. In all likelihood this isn't going to be top of the pile for Louise Haig to deal with assuming she becomes Transport Secretary in the next government.
What Tesla have or have not is as irrelevant now as it was when any of us bought our cars.
What Tesla have or have not is as irrelevant now as it was when any of us bought our cars.
Cardo
Active Member
I see this has made it onto Electrek. I wonder whether it’ll cause Tesla to take notice? Personally, I doubt it and figure they’ll let individuals take them to court if they so wish, but you never know…
electrek.co
Tesla owner wins ~$10k settlement over Tesla's false self-driving claims
A Tesla owner in the UK challenged Tesla over its failure to deliver on its full self-driving claims and won...
electrek.co
Well we took delivery of a Standard Range Plus model 3 in August 2019. We too paid £5800 for FSD. At the time I was glad to support the effort. Now in later life I thought the car would one day be able to drive us when we could not ourselves. What really upsets me is that FSD now has not changed at all for several years here in the UK. Just new games and making the text and icons smaller and access to operations requiring more clicks.
I will be pursuing a refund for a non-delivered product. I'll try and request from edb49 the Tesla docs.
Pagemakers
Active Member
Whilst I can see the reason for your frustration/annoyance, so long as they make it clear, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with Tesla specifying that add-on (software) functionality stays with the car rather than the individual who purchased it.
Pagemakers
Active Member
Agreed but the bloody software doesn’t work anywhere near as advertised. I use autopilot every day and it’s absolutely shameful at the moment. On top of that features that I paid for originally have now been removed thanks to vision-only.
Rooster6655
Active Member
If. you succeeded in getting a part refund for your first FSD purchases based on what the OP has said about depreciation when selling the car on, this would be a major win for the consumer!
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla went full Google Stadia (cancel and refund) in certain countries on certain cars once they have built their bank balance up some more, certain cars will likely be more costly to support/upgrade than its worth. The Model S/X for example not being available in RHD would make sense just to refund the FSD purchases than actually bother to finish on the limited amount of owners who purchased FSD these features, which then gets even more complicated when many will have sold the cars on!
Pagemakers
Active Member
Just like the diesel emissions claims there will be mass Tesla lawsuits in the coming years over this.
All very manageable for Tesla. Case numbers relatively small by comparison and they have the money to settle in hand.
And they will sugar coat with a model Y if they exchange their S/X for the same price or something reasonable for the buyer. They know what works with customers and though I hate to say this money talks! And if you have trillions it talks loud and clear. Not fair but to an extent fairness depends on your POV.
let's cry... can anyone see the case if we find that in 2021 radar was mentioned as equipment? Can we sue tesla for disabling the feature?! sames comes to parking sensors
Update: apparently they already had "Power visual Processing" instead of Radar in late 2021 which is very very surprising
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For the radar point (and USS) points, you are buying a feature not the hardware. The hardware is one means to an end but it’s not actually the feature.
The saying ‘there is more than one way to skin a cat’ couldn’t be more true here.
Back to FSD, U.K. consumer law has your back here, Tesla doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
In my mind there are actually 3 potential ways you could attack the FSD issue in U.K. consumer law. To note these would only apply if you about the car from tesla with FSD or bought FSD after the fact from Tesla. The contract has to have been with Tesla, if you bought it used or or leased it, your contract is with that person.
1) The way the OP did it, successfully arguing a breach of contract.
If you purchased it later where there was no date, you’d probably have to argue those contract terms are unfair and therefore unlawful. You’d also probably have to argue reasonable expectation of ‘soon’ has been breached and that tesla are knowing selling something they cant deliver. They can’t recognise the revenue/profit from your FSD sale which adds to your argument.
2) Distance selling regulations. You have the right to cancel up until 14 days after delivery. FSD is a separate line on the invoice and a distinct software feature of the car which Tesla can easily add or remove and it’s available to purchase as a standalone item.
It hasn’t been delivered yet and therefore you could argue you have the right to cancel under distance selling regulations. This is definitely will be the case if you bought it via the app after the fact. As noted above, you’ve actually got 14 days to cancel after the feature has been released.
3) if you used finance, you may have rights under the consumer credit act and you’ll try and pass the liability to the finance company to provide you a refund. This is usually the route of last resort.
The saying ‘there is more than one way to skin a cat’ couldn’t be more true here.
Back to FSD, U.K. consumer law has your back here, Tesla doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
In my mind there are actually 3 potential ways you could attack the FSD issue in U.K. consumer law. To note these would only apply if you about the car from tesla with FSD or bought FSD after the fact from Tesla. The contract has to have been with Tesla, if you bought it used or or leased it, your contract is with that person.
1) The way the OP did it, successfully arguing a breach of contract.
If you purchased it later where there was no date, you’d probably have to argue those contract terms are unfair and therefore unlawful. You’d also probably have to argue reasonable expectation of ‘soon’ has been breached and that tesla are knowing selling something they cant deliver. They can’t recognise the revenue/profit from your FSD sale which adds to your argument.
2) Distance selling regulations. You have the right to cancel up until 14 days after delivery. FSD is a separate line on the invoice and a distinct software feature of the car which Tesla can easily add or remove and it’s available to purchase as a standalone item.
It hasn’t been delivered yet and therefore you could argue you have the right to cancel under distance selling regulations. This is definitely will be the case if you bought it via the app after the fact. As noted above, you’ve actually got 14 days to cancel after the feature has been released.
3) if you used finance, you may have rights under the consumer credit act and you’ll try and pass the liability to the finance company to provide you a refund. This is usually the route of last resort.
eh?
If you buy a vehicle and during the purchase process it says that it has a radar and it's functionality is advertised, but it is then disabled one way - then it is the same as with FSD..
it is the same with 14 days distance selling regulation. If Tesla did not tell end customer that 14 days applies, according the law you have 365 days of return rights... tesla, IIRC gives 24 hrs...
Nope, it’s not the same.
You didn’t buy a vehicle with radar. You bought a vehicle with traffic aware cruise control with/without auto steer. There is a clear distinction between the two.
How they actually achieve the functionality is almost irrelevant.
This is not be defending tesla, this is me looking at how contract law actually works. All I can say is, good luck if you want to go down that route but I’d honestly not recommend wasting the mental energy.
As I said in my post for FSD, there is a clear case for a refund and people should get a refund.
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