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My experience taking Tesla to court about FSD

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‘A standard term is unfair 'if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer'– Regulation 5(1). Unfair terms are not enforceable against the consumer.’

I’m going to charge you for something the law won’t allow me to deliver.
 
‘A standard term is unfair 'if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer'– Regulation 5(1). Unfair terms are not enforceable against the consumer.’

I’m going to charge you for something the law won’t allow me to deliver.
Thanks :)
 
I suspect now the page says “Upcoming” for the features FSD provides (and now EAP, since Summon and Autopark are disabled since they removed ultrasonics) that Tesla are a little more protected from claims than they were when they were saying “Coming later this year”.

That said I don’t think it’s insurmountable for the reasons @NewbieT mentioned, namely that Tesla are much closer to the regulatory side of things, and have a much clearer picture of the sort of timescales that are going to be involved in actually delivering FSD (even just beta) over here. I personally think the fact that even to this date they are taking money (full price) for the option, with regulatory restrictions going backwards if anything, is acting in bad faith. It is also unreasonable to expect customers to have to do research offline, beyond the order page, to determine if what Tesla are selling them is actually feasible.

I don’t know the consumer law regards what constitutes a realistic expectation of promised features within a vehicle lifetime, but I’d suggest a couple of years would be unreasonable to most observers, particularly when the vast majority of car purchases are financed, so it is the case that many people who buy FSD will never realise the benefit of it during their anticipated ownership period.
 
This evening I received the email from Tesla.
How @edb49 said Tesla is denying everything.
I have only one doubt about MVOA: I don't remember to sign such papers, only the ones related to the PCP.
one more thing: Tesla said I did not provided the proof of purchase... unfortunately I don't remeber if was bought from Amazon or Ebay:rolleyes:

"Dear Mr Speedyranger:cool:



We refer to your Letter Before Claim dated 20 November 2023, which relates to the matter of your Tesla Model 3 Long Range AWD (VIN: xxxxxxxxxx) (the "Vehicle").



Please treat this as Tesla's response to your Letter Before Claim in accordance with the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct. You should note that if we have not commented on one of the points which you have raised in your Letter Before Claim, that does not mean Tesla accepts your point, and we reserve the right to make further points in due course.



Tesla values its customers highly and is disappointed to have received this letter from you. That said, we reject your alleged claim entirely for the reasons which we have set out below and would ask that you refrain from pursuing it further. Should you continue with your alleged claim, we recommend you seek independent legal advice and representation.



  1. Background


We note that you purchased Full Self-Driving Capability (“FSDC”) on 16 May 2020.



You allege that Tesla is in breach of contract for failing to provide full self-driving ("FSD") as described on Tesla's website. You refer to a statement that two features would be delivered by the end of 2020 and allege that this would be the start of additional capabilities and features, and that FSD would be attainable by the car. You also refer to a video and description which says: "All Tesla vehicles have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances …".



It is your alleged case that in your experience, and based on Tesla's subsequent changes to hardware, this is materially inaccurate because the rear cameras get dirty and the front cameras fog up in cold weather, which allegedly prevent the cameras from working. You therefore allege that Tesla is in breach of contract on the basis that the goods provided do not match their description contrary to s.11(1) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 ("CRA").



You are therefore seeking a full refund of FSDC under s.19 of the CRA.



  1. Liability


As already mentioned, Tesla rejects your threatened claim in full. For the reasons set out below, Tesla does not consider it has in any way mis-led you in respect of your purchase of FSDC or that you have any legal basis for alleging that this feature does not match its description. You therefore have no right to a refund in respect of your purchase of FSDC either under contract, the CRA and/or otherwise.



  1. The Motor Vehicle Order Agreement ("MVOA")


The Motor Vehicle Order Agreement ("MVOA") which you signed when you purchased your vehicle contains a Governing Law, Integration and Assignment clause which states: " … Prior agreements, oral statements, negotiations, communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding … " Tesla will rely on this clause and the MVOA for its full terms and effect. As such, any information on Tesla's website at the time of your purchase does not form part of our agreement with you as to the goods to be provided and their description.



  1. The cameras


Notwithstanding the above, if and to the extent you can prove the information on Tesla's website did form part of the contract, you are also required to prove that the Vehicle's cameras do not work as described. At present, your allegations appear to be based on nothing more than your subjective opinion. Please provide evidence to support your allegations if you intend to pursue your alleged claim.



In addition, it is the driver’s responsibility to ensure that the Vehicle's cameras are able to see the road, for example by keeping them clean. Tesla cannot be held responsible for the state of British roads.



The MVOA also included the term: “Owner’s Manual: You agree to review and understand the Owner’s Manual, which is accessible via your Vehicle’s touchscreen and explains the operation of your Vehicle including applicable options, features and hardware. The Owner’s Manual may be updated and revised as new features for your Vehicle are introduced. You may also obtain a written copy of your Owner’s Manual from us upon request.”



As such you agreed to review the Owner’s Manual, which includes the note within the section “Autopilot”: ”Ensure all cameras and sensors are clean before each drive. See Cleaning Cameras and Sensors for more information. Dirty cameras and sensors, as well as environmental conditions such as rain and faded lane markings, can affect Autopilot performance.” (emphasis added). Accordingly it was made clear to you of the need to clean the cameras and that this would be the customer’s responsibility. We therefore reject your suggestion that the Vehicle was in any way not as described.



Further, Tesla has not indicated that the rear cameras have self-cleaning capabilities. As such, Tesla rejects your suggestion that the Vehicle's cameras and/or its FSD capabilities are not as described. Again, you are required to provide evidence to support your allegations should you continue with your alleged claim.



  1. Hardware 4.0 ("HW4")


As to the changes being introduced in HW4, this includes a new version of the cameras and a heating element for the front-facing windscreen cameras. Tesla is entitled to update its software and hardware, and this in no way supports your allegation that earlier iterations are "not as described" or that these were not of satisfactory quality.



  1. Tesla's website


Tesla does not accept any of your assertions in respect of an alleged FSD video using HD maps and that this and/or any US court testimony and/or report by Reuters is of any relevance to your alleged claim.



For these reasons, there is no basis on which Tesla is liable to you under the CRA and/or otherwise.



  1. Your alleged losses


You request a refund of £5,800 which you say is the full price you paid for FSDC, but you have not yet provided any evidence in this regard.



If, however, you succeed in proving a breach of the CRA (which is denied), you would not in any event be entitled to a full refund of the price paid for FSDC as you have clearly had some use of the functionalities complained of. As such, there would need to be a deduction for use which would take account of all used FSDC features (including Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot, which you have had the benefit of throughout your ownership of the Vehicle).



On any basis, Tesla does not agree that you are entitled to any refund for the reasons which we have outlined above.



  1. Next steps


For the avoidance of doubt, we do not have a settlement offer to make and would request that you desist from pursuing your alleged claim.



Notwithstanding this, if you do wish to continue with your alleged claim, please direct any further correspondence to our solicitors ([email protected]). You should note, however, that Tesla will defend your alleged claim vigorously.



All of Tesla's rights are fully reserved.



Yours sincerely





xxxxxxxx

Supervisor – Customer Resolutions UK & Ireland
185 Ashton New Road, Manchester, M11 3DX"
I have got the exact same reply. They didn't even bother to change the reply to reflect the year i bought the car along with FSD (I ordered the car in August 2019 and took the delivery in Sept 2019) and the letter i send them states the features will be delivered by the end of 2019, but the reply i got from them states "two features would be delivered by the end of 2020" . Well, i will be going a head with step 2 now.

@edb49 thank you for your efforts so far and greatly appreciated. I would like to speak to a consumer champion about this. please let me know what i need to do from here.
 
I have got the exact same reply. They didn't even bother to change the reply to reflect the year i bought the car along with FSD (I ordered the car in August 2019 and took the delivery in Sept 2019) and the letter i send them states the features will be delivered by the end of 2019, but the reply i got from them states "two features would be delivered by the end of 2020" . Well, i will be going a head with step 2 now.

@edb49 thank you for your efforts so far and greatly appreciated. I would like to speak to a consumer champion about this. please let me know what i need to do from here.
Today I received the email from the Tesla solicitor (Taylor Wessing LLP) and I have 14 days to send them the full Particulars of the claim.
 
What does the email say?

Also - lol - I like the fact they’re giving you deadlines now. Is that supposed to mean something?
Was me to say to delivery the full particulars of the claim when I filled the claim.
 

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And what are the implications for Tesla if their terms are found to contravene? 🤣

££££££s

💩💩💩💩💩💩

They would potentially be up against the big guns - CMA - Competition and Markets Authority - the same people that initially blocked Microsoft’s acquisition of Blizzard. An investigation by them might not be very beneficial.
 
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💩💩💩💩💩💩

They would potentially be up against the big guns - CMA - Competition and Markets Authority - the same people that initially blocked Microsoft’s acquisition of Blizzard. An investigation by them might not be very beneficial.

The CMA investigate very few cases each year and not individual cases. However, I think a number of people (here) raised the issue of EV charging a few years ago which caused CMA to open an investigation and found Ecotricity’s MSA deal anti competitive. Have you filed a complaint yet re: abuse of dominant position / imposing unfair trading terms on customers? If not, you could ask for a market study - the word Tesla might pique interest.


 
Was me to say to delivery the full particulars of the claim when I filled the claim.
Important... to be technically correct when you email Taylor Wessing the detailed particulars of claim, you also need to file an N215 form with the court: [email protected]

I've attached my N215, but you should have slightly different details - e.g. Taylor Wessing's rather than Tesla's. Pretty simple and I don't think anyone will need any further help, but there are questions please shout.
 

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Tesla seem to be leaning quite heavily on this from the FSD page...

"The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates."

I thought quite a bit about this before submitting my claim, because it was part of my evidence. If you break down this language they are saying a few things:
  1. This does not make your car autonomous
  2. Features are dependent on achieving reliability "far in excess of human drivers"
  3. Features are dependent on regulatory approval
Taking each one of these in turn:
  1. That's fine... I was expecting it to be able to drive itself with me monitoring it, not fully autonomy. (Similar to the motorway autopilot.)
  2. This is 100% their problem. I can't do anything to help them make the system reliable/safe. They have to achieve their reliability target by the end of 2019.
  3. Regulatory approval is a red herring; city streets driving with driver supervision (e.g. level 2 autonomy) is legal in the UK. There were no regulatory blockers.
So I considered this and thought they couldn't defend my claim. (Regardless of the unfair contract term tactic other people have mentioned.)
 
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I suspect now the page says “Upcoming” for the features FSD provides (and now EAP, since Summon and Autopark are disabled since they removed ultrasonics) that Tesla are a little more protected from claims than they were when they were saying “Coming later this year”.

As you note, Tesla changed the website to say "Upcoming" instead of "Coming later this year". I don't think this gives Tesla as much protection as lots of consumers think. The court approach to this is because "Upcoming" is not a defined term in the contract, then the court expects it to take on its "ordinary meaning". Context is very important in this case, e.g. "Upcoming" will take on a different meaning for different products.

The ordinary meaning is that which an average person would take it to mean. Clearly, no one is going to think "upcoming" means "never". It is very difficult to see how "upcoming" can mean "in 10 years time" too in the context of the car. It probably is fair for "upcoming" to mean "within 6 months" for a car.

The most extreme case would be someone who bought FSD the day that Tesla changed their website to upcoming. I think this is about 3 years ago, does anyone have the date to hand? I don't think Tesla has a legally sustainable position to say that "upcoming" means more than 3 years. This is a big proportion of a car's useful life and typical ownership period.

Is anyone in this position and wants to progress a claim with Tesla?

P.S. Shout out to Taylor Wessing... hope it's helpful for you guys to read this and prepare your counter arguments in advance. :)
 
Tangentially related, but very recently Tesla have added more restrictions on the usage of Autopilot, following a ruling by NHTSA in the United States. For whatever reason Europe have received these restrictions as well.

In particular the car now uses the cabin camera to detect “attentiveness”, and from what I’ve read on both UK Facebook groups It is quite onerous, warning the driver or disabling Autopilot completely for a journey (aka “forced cancellation”) if you look away or down for too long. Notably, as of the most recent software update if a driver receives 5 strikes (3 If you cover the cabin camera, I believe) then you are locked out of Autopilot for a week. These strikes don’t expire, except when you get the week long timeout.

There is also talk that this won’t be sufficient to placate the NHTSA - who might mandate that the cabin camera can’t be covered to use Autopilot.

In any event, the reason this is noteworthy in my opinion is because at some point in 2022 Tesla upgraded the cabin camera to have IR emitters, to illuminate the drivers face, etc, thereby making analysis of attentiveness more effective. There is a long running thread on here of US-based FSDb users who have experienced strikes at night, because the cabin camera can’t see them/their eyes properly. Some people have managed to get SCs to fit the camera module with the IR emitters to their car, others have been less successful. Others have tried to work around it by running their display in “day mode” and/or with max brightness…

All of which is to say that this is potentially another argument against the whole “your car comes with all of the hardware required for Full Self Driving” premise. If people with pre-2022 cabin cameras are constantly getting penalised because the camera can’t see them properly, then what hope is there for those people for effective FSD?

Bonus photo of how it looks at night in my car (I should add that there was actually some illumination from the house, so out on the road would be darker still)
 

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I have a other thought...
If you fully block camera, and it faults, then maybe adding transparent duck tape or smudge it to make it "dirty" would be enough not to trigger that camera dirty but at the same time wont register that I am sleeping while 70 moh... ;D

Oooh so excited to perform those experiments
1000011340.gif


But at the same time yet another nail into the decision to never ever buy tesla again
 
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Regulatory approval is a red herring; city streets driving with driver supervision (e.g. level 2 autonomy) is legal in the UK. There were no regulatory blockers.
This is not the case, while the relevant UNECE standards for ALKS and Lane Changing don't specify which roads it can be used on, it is specifically not allowed to cross lanes without following the defined driver confirmation and timings. This makes it impossible for the car to pick a lane at a roundabout for example. You would also find that the maximum permissible latteral acceleration would mean driving very slowly.
 
This is not the case, while the relevant UNECE standards for ALKS and Lane Changing don't specify which roads it can be used on, it is specifically not allowed to cross lanes without following the defined driver confirmation and timings. This makes it impossible for the car to pick a lane at a roundabout for example. You would also find that the maximum permissible latteral acceleration would mean driving very slowly.
Thanks GRiLLA, this is helpful.

There's no reason that a manufacturer with FSD couldn't take UNECE standards into account. e.g. At the moment Tesla stops at traffic lights regardless whether they are red or green. And if FSD actually 'existed' there's no reason it couldn't disengage at a roundabout. And key to the whole litigation against Tesla is that none of this FSD was anywhere close to delivery by 1st Jan 2020.

P.S. I have a Model X too and I remember when the lateral G limits were implemented in AutoPilot, so it would slow itself down on corners/ask you to take over when previously it didn't. Shows that Tesla have got a track record of adjusting the AP system to regulation, and if they had a working FSD system by Jan 2020 then I'm sure they'd do the same.
 
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