Who has worn out a set of tires the fastest? There has to be some members that have replaced tires already!
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Negative Camber in the Rear and Expensive Tires
- Thread starter lolachampcar
- Start date
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
I've read posts from two differnt owners that have done in rears, one at 5500 miles with the inside shoulder gone.
The added grip of the Pilots over the Contis is probably what is driving the increased range.
The added grip of the Pilots over the Contis is probably what is driving the increased range.
I got the upper suspension link in. I'll get some pictures up on my site. The the interim, I've started to post pictures on an alignment for dummies (me) project for toe bars and caster measurement.
This is a start-
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/Tesla/Alignment/tesla_alignment.htm
I had a picture of the upper suspension link; it is here-
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/Tesla/Rear Suspension/DSC03304.JPG
This is a start-
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/Tesla/Alignment/tesla_alignment.htm
I had a picture of the upper suspension link; it is here-
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/Tesla/Rear Suspension/DSC03304.JPG
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strider
Active Member
The conti is a 340 treadwear and the Pilots are 220 but both "AA A" for traction and wet. So I would expect shorter life w/ the Pilots (and they are twice the price). Our MS is a daily driver so I'll be sticking w/ the Contis.
Mine are getting pretty thin but wearing evenly. I rotated them at 3000 miles and am at 5900 now. I just started checking the tread depth last week and there is 5mm & I have contis
Update
I've posted a pictorial of my toe bar arrangement at http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/Tesla/Alignment/tesla_alignment.htm. It is not obvious what you are looking at straight away but try to imagine the top and bottom thick black lines are the wood toe bars and the red side lines are the strings. The numbers next to the strings are actual measurements leading and trailing rim edges while the calculations for each corner are inboard of the measured values. In short, Tesla does not run any toe in to speak of which is why the car hunts freeway grooves and gets such good coast down numbers (in addition to it having a good Cd).
I dropped a drawing off at the machine shop today and should have my first pass at an adjustable upper link to set camber early next week. I can then see what will or will not have to be done with the toe link to keep toe within specification. The good news is it looks like I will be able to machine the stock rubber bushing insert for the change thus keeping from having the expense of bespoke upper suspension arms.
I've posted a pictorial of my toe bar arrangement at http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/Tesla/Alignment/tesla_alignment.htm. It is not obvious what you are looking at straight away but try to imagine the top and bottom thick black lines are the wood toe bars and the red side lines are the strings. The numbers next to the strings are actual measurements leading and trailing rim edges while the calculations for each corner are inboard of the measured values. In short, Tesla does not run any toe in to speak of which is why the car hunts freeway grooves and gets such good coast down numbers (in addition to it having a good Cd).
I dropped a drawing off at the machine shop today and should have my first pass at an adjustable upper link to set camber early next week. I can then see what will or will not have to be done with the toe link to keep toe within specification. The good news is it looks like I will be able to machine the stock rubber bushing insert for the change thus keeping from having the expense of bespoke upper suspension arms.
For those that do not cross post a lot, there is a thread at TeslaMotors dealing with the same issue-
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/warning-extreme-wear-rear-tires#comment-155326
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/warning-extreme-wear-rear-tires#comment-155326
I had my stock 19's rotated at 4700 miles because there was significant wear on the inside shoulder of the rear tires. I estimate that with regular rotation I'll get about 20K miles from the set before replacement is warranted.
I was given one set of alignment specifications for MS and there were no provisions for 19s v. 21s. In addition, I can find no rear camber adjustment which indicates to me that there is but one set up for the rear camber.
I suspect the 19s will wear better because (1) they are harder and (2) the contact patch is smaller making the disparity between outside and inside loading less. That being said, there is a HUGE difference in wear reporting even on 21s. Some say they are burning through them while others are ok. Driving style has a lot to do with it (huge torque and heavy car) so maybe that explains the disparity.
On a personal note, there is racing EVERYWHERE this weekend
I suspect the 19s will wear better because (1) they are harder and (2) the contact patch is smaller making the disparity between outside and inside loading less. That being said, there is a HUGE difference in wear reporting even on 21s. Some say they are burning through them while others are ok. Driving style has a lot to do with it (huge torque and heavy car) so maybe that explains the disparity.
On a personal note, there is racing EVERYWHERE this weekend
I'm down to 5mm on my tires after 5,500 miles so I'm thinking they won't make 15-20k miles if you replace them at 3mm recommended for wet traction.
When Elon was at the Austin Store opening, we brought up the need for 19" turbine rims so hopefully that happens. So many more choices in the 19" tire size even in the performance category.
When Elon was at the Austin Store opening, we brought up the need for 19" turbine rims so hopefully that happens. So many more choices in the 19" tire size even in the performance category.
The contact patch will only be smaller if you inflate the tires higher. The contact patch is slightly longer and narrower (which is what I think you meant) because the tread width is narrower on the 19" tires. The higher sidewall of the 19" tires also helps compensate for the camber because there is more sidewall to flex. If there is a toe setting for the rear, this might also be used to help compensate for the camber.
jerry33,
Good point and, yes you are right, it was the width I was talking about.
Tesla is using darn near zero toe; probably to reduce rolling resistance.
The thrust angle was off just a tad on my car but that may just be bushing settling.
Good point and, yes you are right, it was the width I was talking about.
Tesla is using darn near zero toe; probably to reduce rolling resistance.
The thrust angle was off just a tad on my car but that may just be bushing settling.
The big problem with excessive camber is that it exacerbates any errors in the other alignment angles--even if those errors are very small. Camber is considered a non-wearing angle in radial tires, but that dates from a time when tires had some sidewall.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
OK, so there is one question in my mind on this issue that I haven't yet been able to understand: If we just choose to accept the high negative camber angle and it's pros and cons and we drive aggressively we will experience a lot of wear on the inner edges of the rears. By doing a rotation where the rear right wheel switches place with the right front wheel and correspondingly on the left side we will be able to put the same wear on the tires that were in the front, thereby wearing out the inner edge of all four wheels at about the same time. Now, if we could then reverse the tires on the wheels all of the inner edges would now be outside edges, right? And we could double the tire life once again (aproximately, if we disregard general wear but only consider inner edge wear). So I've been reading up on tires and I've come to understand that they can be either "Symmetrical" or "Asymetrical" and that they can be "Directional" or not. Now a symmetrical tires which is not directional can be "flipped inside out" on the wheel. And asymetrical tire can not. There are very few non-directional performance tires (they tend to have a V-shaped thread pattern i presume, and I've rarely seen modern tires that does not have this, or the arrow saying "direction of rotation" or something similar), either for the 21" og 19" wheels. However, if the tire is directional, but not asymetrical you could flip it on the wheel and after having used it for right rear and right front then use it for left rear and left front. So my question is basically, are most directional tires also asymetrical???
Old wife's tale or not, I follow the conventional wisdom that you do move radials so that they rotate in the opposite direction. I've had belts slip/break doing this in the past so I no longer do it.
That being said, I have moved tires across the back of cars such that the "outside" label is on the inside without any issues at all. This has effectively allowed me to get most all the use from a set of rear tires. This goes against the manufacturer's recommendation but I have never had a handling or wear issue doing it. That's my 2 cents.
OOPs, just saw the Norway.... TUV will not approve of doing the above.
That being said, I have moved tires across the back of cars such that the "outside" label is on the inside without any issues at all. This has effectively allowed me to get most all the use from a set of rear tires. This goes against the manufacturer's recommendation but I have never had a handling or wear issue doing it. That's my 2 cents.
OOPs, just saw the Norway.... TUV will not approve of doing the above.
You wrote: "I follow the conventional wisdom that you do move radials so that they rotate in the opposite direction." [emphasis mine]
I presume you meant to write 'you do not move'?
The stock Goodyear 19" tires are marked for inside and outside; I take it you believe there's no harm in swapping left and right rears (requiring dismounting and remounting) so that direction of rotation remains the same, but inside and outside are reversed. If that's true, why do manufacturers bother marking inside and outside? Just a ploy to get us to buy more tires, akin to the admonition on shampoo bottles to 'lather, rinse, repeat'?
CyberDutchie
Active Member
After reading this thread, getting the wheel and tire service plan might not be such a bad idea.
$700 for 19" and $900 for 21"--I assume that's annual.
$700 for 19" and $900 for 21"--I assume that's annual.
That is a piece of FUD from when the North American tire manufacturers were trying to stem the tide of radial tires. The premise is that the radial cords form a set and over time are no longer "radially aligned". In a rear wheel drive car, that means that the rear tires' cords will be angled one way because of drive torque and the front tires will be angled the other way because of braking. Now if the hypothesis was true, then the one way that you couldn't rotate them was from back to front. Because many automakers recommended front to back rotation and no problems were incurred, the hypothesis is disproven.
After inspecting a rather large quantity of failed tires over many years, I have yet to see a "slipped belt". The only way that the belt could slip would be if the tread compound was hot enough to melt. You would assuredly have more problems than "slipped belts" if the tires got that hot.
There are some tires that are casing directional. These can't be rotated except in an X pattern. If they are also asymmetrical, there are two types of tires (A and B) for each size.
In the early days of radial tires, the quality of most tire manufacturers was, to put it politely, "less than good". Those tires failed regularly regardless of what you did to them.
If any tire is run in the same position for 80K miles, any change is likely to make it fail as the casing is just about worn out at that time.
Sorry about the rant, but tire rotation FUD is one of my hot buttons
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Many tires are asymmetrical. The idea is that there is typically more wear on the outside of the tire rather than on the inside, because the pressure throughout the contact patch is not perfectly even, so there is more rubber on the outside edge of the tire and more void on the inside to channel water. When proper rain competition tires aren't available, mounting asymmetrical tires with the outside in, will increase control in wet conditions. Some asymmetrical tires also have a stiffer bead area on the outside for better handling response.
A lot depends on the individual tire and the actual details of a particular tire are often hard to find. However, mounting the tires the wrong way out is not going to be a safety problem.
stevezzzz,
Yes, you are correct. It should have been I do not.
jerry33,
It is good to hear from someone on this issue that knows what they are talking about. I had a few failures many years ago and they were probably attributable to something other than rotation direction. Not knowing any better, I just went along with "conventional wisdom" where "someone said". Thanks for the input (one of the very good things about forums like this).
WRT to moving the "inside" to the "outside", the tread design is different across the contact patch (from inside to outside) on these tires and this may be the reason for the labeling. I'm not saying it is correct, but I have (dismounted and remounted) moved tires across the rear from side to side to make sure I used all the tire up. I have not had a handling or reliability issue doing this and thus have continued to do it whenever I can not get camber out of the suspension. In the case of MS, the fix I am looking at is reasonably simple and may even allow for retaining the stock rubber bushings. Given that my MS is my daily driver (and I'm between projects) I'm going to put in the time to get it right now and not have to worry about swapping tires around all the time.
Lastly, I do not think the tire protection plan is going to cover moving tires around for wear. I could be wrong here but those plans are mostly for road damaged tire and rim problems. I'd check the language carefully before buying.
Yes, you are correct. It should have been I do not.
jerry33,
It is good to hear from someone on this issue that knows what they are talking about. I had a few failures many years ago and they were probably attributable to something other than rotation direction. Not knowing any better, I just went along with "conventional wisdom" where "someone said". Thanks for the input (one of the very good things about forums like this).
WRT to moving the "inside" to the "outside", the tread design is different across the contact patch (from inside to outside) on these tires and this may be the reason for the labeling. I'm not saying it is correct, but I have (dismounted and remounted) moved tires across the rear from side to side to make sure I used all the tire up. I have not had a handling or reliability issue doing this and thus have continued to do it whenever I can not get camber out of the suspension. In the case of MS, the fix I am looking at is reasonably simple and may even allow for retaining the stock rubber bushings. Given that my MS is my daily driver (and I'm between projects) I'm going to put in the time to get it right now and not have to worry about swapping tires around all the time.
Lastly, I do not think the tire protection plan is going to cover moving tires around for wear. I could be wrong here but those plans are mostly for road damaged tire and rim problems. I'd check the language carefully before buying.
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