New CA bill AB1184 being considered: Up to $10K rebate for EV purchases

[Troy916]

I am not sure about that, other then to say it has to be in the next 2 weeks before they leave for a break on the 15th.

 

[Troy916]

btw, the finance person was critical of the bill too. Unclear on funding it.

 

[RobStark]

$3-billion electric vehicle rebate bill moves to California Legislature for full vote

Assemblymen Phil Ting is floating the idea of a $50k price cap for the incentives.

Preventing rebates for millionaires and irresponsible $50k/year "millionaires" from buying $100k Teslas with State money.

A $49,999.99 California Edition Model 3 for as long as the program last?

 

[SageBrush]

$3-billion electric vehicle rebate bill moves to California Legislature for full vote

Assemblymen Phil Ting is floating the idea of a $50k price cap for the incentives.

Preventing rebates for millionaires and irresponsible $50k/year "millionaires" from buying $100k Teslas with State money.

A $49,999.99 California Edition Model 3 for as long as the program last?

Seems fairly straight-forward to move some of the options to a later software enabling.
Or just write the law to rebate X percent of the first Y dollars cost

Question: is an EV bought by a rich guy any less valuable to the state than an EV bought by a poor guy ?

 

[RobStark]

Question: is an EV bought by a rich guy any less valuable to the state than an EV bought by a poor guy ?

It isn't about value to the state.

The lower the income the more likely a rebate will alter a buying decision from ICEv to BEV.

Billionaires don't give a rats ass about BEV incentives when buying a car.

Dude making $50k/year it very much makes a difference if a car is $40k or $30k after rebates.

The State doesn't care if buyers buy $10k more in options.

Capping price instead of income also allows billionaires to participate in the rebate program. You just have to forgo Model S, Model X and Model 3 with dual motor all wheel drive smart suspension with big battery.

 

[SageBrush]

The lower the income the more likely a rebate will alter a buying decision from ICEv to BEV.

Prove it. The rebate is probably more important to the poor person, but that is not equivalent to EV sales.

When poor people are up in arms because the rebate funds ran out due to rich people use thereby blocking their purchase we can talk. In the meantime framing the discussion as billionaires Vs poor people just shows the weakness of argument. If there is any argument to be had here it is upper middle class Vs upper-upper middle class. Excuse me while I yawn

I think the only relevant debate here is how to maximize EV sales with the money allotted. Screw the class warfare crap.

 

[TaoJones]

$3-billion electric vehicle rebate bill moves to California Legislature for full vote

Assemblymen Phil Ting is floating the idea of a $50k price cap for the incentives.

Preventing rebates for millionaires and irresponsible $50k/year "millionaires" from buying $100k Teslas with State money.

A $49,999.99 California Edition Model 3 for as long as the program last?

Open letter to Our Man Phil:

That price cap is absurd. You've just a) disincented me from purchasing my next Tesla in California and b) incented me to establish residency in a state without a 9% sales tax and $700/year registration taxes, er, fees. That's $10,000 I'll save right there. You can now keep your rebate. Thanks, Our Man Phil. Way to go.

 

[SageBrush]

Open letter to Our Man Phil:

That price cap is absurd. You've just a) disincented me from purchasing my next Tesla in California and b) incented me to establish residency in a state without a 9% sales tax and $700/year registration taxes, er, fees. That's $10,000 I'll save right there. You can now keep your rebate. Thanks, Our Man Phil. Way to go.

How much do you think that change of residency and/or dual residency is going to cost you ?

 

[ohmman]

Prove it. The rebate is probably more important to the poor person, but that is not equivalent to EV sales.

When poor people are up in arms because the rebate funds ran out due to rich people use thereby blocking their purchase we can talk. In the meantime framing the discussion as billionaires Vs poor people just shows the weakness of argument. If there is any argument to be had here it is upper middle class Vs upper-upper middle class. Excuse me while I yawn

I think the only relevant debate here is how to maximize EV sales with the money allotted. Screw the class warfare crap.

I didn't read it as class warfare. I read it as a statement on the ROI of those funds.

Economic theory would suggest that the incentive is more effective on populations who feel the effect of the incentive; that is, lower income populations. That would also suggest that we are best trying to limit it to the population to whom is it most effective. That's how I want my tax dollars spent.

That said, you make a good point: "Prove it." A quick Google search was not fruitful in checking for studies that have been done to test the efficacy of financial incentives on different populations. That is, I didn't find anything to help us answer that question one way or another. I'll have to search deeper when I have a little more time and less children breathing down my neck asking for ice cream.

For what it's worth, I believe the economic theory enough where I did not apply for the CVRP $2500 rebate. I knew it was a fixed pool and thought it was best to leave that money in the pool for someone else who might have been more affected by it.

 

[TaoJones]

How much do you think that change of residency and/or dual residency is going to cost you ?

In my case, not much, net net.

Point taken, however - especially now, it's an ever-changing landscape with regard to residency for those who have the temerity to have multiple addresses continent-wide.

In fact, it's gone beyond residences - a scenario well-known to those who've purchased yachts or aircraft in California, whether a resident or not at the time. A good attorney is worth his weight in gold for such things (my comment in the other thread about 50 Priuses (Prii) at the bottom of the ocean next to the attorneys notwithstanding). Attorneys are like antibiotics - when you really should have them, you really should have them.

With regard to the point of the thread, $50K is just a bit low, assuming that the incentive does not apply to used EVs. Maybe they'll compromise at $69,999 base price before options, taxes and fees (which would include every new Tesla), but I doubt it.

There's an opportunity to educate Our Man Phil and others in the CA Legislature to disabuse them of this oft-repeated but not really true mantra that Tesla owners are filthy rich folk. There was an ad hoc survey done within the past couple of years that showed a wider socioeconomic spectrum than the legislators' mantra would support. Nice anonymized data mining opportunity for an intern, perhaps.

Edit: In a few years this will work itself out anyway - used Model 3s will sell for $20K and up, and *that* monthly payment will be less than gas, oil and maintenance for, dare I say, most commuters.

 

[SageBrush]

Economic theory would suggest that the incentive is more effective on populations who feel the effect of the incentive

I'll just add: all else being equal

And the interest in EVs between the groups is most certainly not equal. How effective do you think the rebate will be with AGW denialists ? People who shop cars that cost $5k - $10k ? Single car families ? It makes sense to identify the groups on the cusp of deciding to buy an EV and pushing them to purchase with a carrot. HOV access in CA was a whole lot more effective IMHO than any couple thousand dollar rebate

 

[ohmman]

And the interest in EVs between the groups is most certainly not equal.

I have to reply: prove it. That's a claim that doesn't ring true in my anecdotal population. I'd be interested to see how it plays out in California more widely.

 

[SageBrush]

I have to reply: prove it. That's a claim that doesn't ring true in my anecdotal population. I'd be interested to see how it plays out in California more widely.

Touche.

We are probably tinged by our neighbors. Mine are mostly blue-collar or merchant republicans. I had to laugh the other day when a couple Electric utility people working at my house voiced sincere interest in my PV setup. Both were thinking of a panel for their RV as a convenient trickle charger.

 

[ohmman]

Touche.

We are probably tinged by our neighbors. Mine are mostly blue-collar or merchant republicans. I had to laugh the other day when a couple Electric utility people working at my house voiced sincere interest in my PV setup. Both were thinking of a panel for their RV as a convenient trickle charger.

I think you're right. Here in coastal NorCal, I know a ton of people who are very interested in an EV but can't afford them. I've converted a couple to used Leafs, but these incentives are a big deal to them. I bet the story is different in the Central Valley.

Not enough data, is there?

 

[Sandiegodoug]

The idea of this rebate is to increase ev adoption. Whether it encourages a low income person to buy an ev instead of an economy ice vehicle or a millionaire to buy a p100d instead of a Ferrari, you have increased the penetration of electric vehicles, and that is the goal of the program.
I think capping rebate at 10k reasonable but not the price of the car.

 

[RobStark]

Prove it. The rebate is probably more important to the poor person, but that is not equivalent to EV sales.

When poor people are up in arms because the rebate funds ran out due to rich people use thereby blocking their purchase we can talk. In the meantime framing the discussion as billionaires Vs poor people just shows the weakness of argument. If there is any argument to be had here it is upper middle class Vs upper-upper middle class. Excuse me while I yawn

I think the only relevant debate here is how to maximize EV sales with the money allotted. Screw the class warfare crap.

Economics is unprovable because you can't run controlled experiments. But it makes absolute rational sense.

The most important thing is that incentives for EVs pass.

If Hollywood stars and professional athletes have to pay full price for their Tesla's so be it.

 

[RobStark]

The idea of this rebate is to increase ev adoption. Whether it encourages a low income person to buy an ev instead of an economy ice vehicle or a millionaire to buy a p100d instead of a Ferrari, you have increased the penetration of electric vehicles, and that is the goal of the program.
I think capping rebate at 10k reasonable but not the price of the car.

The idea is increase the economies of scale so prices come down on EVs to the point they reach cost parity with ICEv. Then crash below it.

Every new car competes with every new car on the market to some degree.

But Tesla does not compete directly with Ferrari. Ferrari sells $240k and up sports cars and GT cars.

Tesla sells $35k-$165k sedans and CUVs.

Displacing Ferrairis is gnats nuts. They sell 7500 per year.And they are generally garage queens that get driven on Sunday afternoon or Saturday night. Displacing Corollas to F-Series to S-Class is relevant.

I know plenty of people that own Teslas, Porsches and Ferarris.

I don't know a single one that did not purchase a Ferrari and purchased a Tesla instead because they got $10k off their taxes. I do know one guy that owns both.

 

[gregincal]

Economics is unprovable because you can't run controlled experiments. But it makes absolute rational sense.

The most important thing is that incentives for EVs pass.

If Hollywood stars and professional athletes have to pay full price for their Tesla's so be it.

But if they are capping on vehicle price instead of income, then Hollywood stars still get the rebate for their fifth car they're buying for the gardener to drive around, and somebody who absolutely needs the long range Tesla for his business but can only afford it with the rebate is SOL. It makes no sense.

 

[RobStark]

But if they are capping on vehicle price instead of income, then Hollywood stars still get the rebate for their fifth car they're buying for the gardener to drive around, and somebody who absolutely needs the long range Tesla for his business but can only afford it with the rebate is SOL. It makes no sense.

A 315 mile Model 3 is $44k.

Contact Assemblymen Ting if you want income caps on the rebate.

So Hollywood Stars and Professionally athletes don't buy Hyundai Ionic EVs by the dozen.

There will always be loopholes. As a whole the program is good and some compromises that are not ideal may have to be made to get the votes for the program to get enacted. So demagogues don't fake news the incentives programs to death.Such is democracy.

 

[FlatSix911]

The idea is increase the economies of scale so prices come down on EVs to the point they reach cost parity with ICEv. Then crash below it. Every new car competes with every new car on the market to some degree. But Tesla does not compete directly with Ferrari. Ferrari sells $240k and up sports cars and GT cars.Tesla sells $35k-$165k sedans and CUVs. Displacing Ferrairis is gnats nuts. They sell 7500 per year.And they are generally garage queens that get driven on Sunday afternoon or Saturday night. Displacing Corollas to F-Series to S-Class is relevant.I know plenty of people that own Teslas, Porsches and Ferarris.

I don't know a single one that did not purchase a Ferrari and purchased a Tesla instead because they got $10k off their taxes. I do know one guy that owns both.

Anecdotal evidence ... I own both and still care about the tax credit