New renderings of storage space and 2nd row seats! (9/15)

[WestCoastP85D]

When I explained the situation to my wife that the second row doesn't go down, she didn't believe me. She said "No way... I saw the reveal of the prototype....." I actually had to show her the picture. What's our issue? It's an ASSUMED feature of any SUV. This is compounded by the fact that the company committed to it in various forms. Seems (given the delay), that this is a confusing disappointment.

The bird wing doors compromising roof storage combined with the fixed back seats = perceived less flexibility. I hope we are wrong on this.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I suspect at least part of the reason why the 2nd row doesn't fold flat (at least the current seats so far, there is speculation there may be "standard" seats that do fold) is the same reason why starting with the 2011 generation the Sienna 2nd row doesn't fold.
The engineers decided that the thinner seat padding from making them fold was not worth it given the seats are occupied far more often than the extra cargo space is needed:

The sacrifice in padding needed to get them to fold flat into the floor is noticeable even on short jaunts. Toyota thought long and hard about it and decided that people are in those seats more often than large objects occupying the cargo area. In short, Toyota's engineers say they chose passenger comfort over cargo loading ease.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/18/2011-toyota-sienna-first-drive/

 

[ohmman]

The engineers decided that the thinner seat padding from making them fold was not worth it given the seats are occupied far more often than the extra cargo space is needed...

I think this is the most reasonable explanation I've heard (and you're not the first to mention it, but the first to provide the excellent context). That said, I will reserve judgement until I sit in those not-foldable seats as I'm quite doubtful they're heavily padded...

 

[AlMc]

I suspect at least part of the reason why the 2nd row doesn't fold flat (at least the current seats so far, there is speculation there may be "standard" seats that do fold) is the same reason why starting with the 2011 generation the Sienna 2nd row doesn't fold.
The engineers decided that the thinner seat padding from making them fold was not worth it given the seats are occupied far more often than the extra cargo space is needed:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/18/2011-toyota-sienna-first-drive/

Certainly plausible explanation, as is the speculation that it was the only way to get a 5 star safety rating. As to the future possibility of a folding seat option....It could be in the plans but if you call NAsales they will confirm for you, as they did for me, that there is currently no plan on having folding seats in either the Signature or Production Xs.

 

[Joel]

From the Tesla June 16, 2014 comm sent to Model X reservation holders: "You’ll also be able to fold down the second and third rows to create a flat platform for storage. "

From the Tesla Nov 2014 comm sent to Model X reservation holders: "In fact, every element of Model X – from the interior to the falcon wing doors – either lives up to or surpasses the prototype we initially unveiled." And this message has been emphasized by Elon publicly in recent months.

These were not 'prototype' statements.

Bonnie - I believe Elon agrees with you (on some level, I suppose):

"Model X Reveal Event (Click and Turn On Sound / Audio)"

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think this is the most reasonable explanation I've heard (and you're not the first to mention it, but the first to provide the excellent context). That said, I will reserve judgement until I sit in those not-foldable seats as I'm quite doubtful they're heavily padded...

I'm also somewhat skeptical how much the padding would be noticeable, but that's how Toyota explained it. The previous two generations' 2nd row is able to fold flat to function like a table, but the 2011 Sienna's 2nd row could only be pushed forward against the front seats very similar to what is shown in the 2nd picture posted by the OP of this thread (only difference is the top half can bend forward a bit, while for the Model X it looks like it is completely rigid).

 

[walla2]

This is a UV. The seats really do need to fold flat. This is a major failure if this doesn't change after the initial signatures and a clear communication about timeline needs to be established on Sept 29th at the reveal to shut this major issue down asap and move forward with the pluses about the car.

 

[dirkhh]

THIS. So totally this. I would love to hear Elon's response to this post. I know I won't. I still would love to.

Bonnie - I believe Elon agrees with you (on some level, I suppose):

View attachment 94459

"Model X Reveal Event (Click and Turn On Sound / Audio)"

View attachment 94460

View attachment 94461

 

[Yggdrasill]

I do find it very ironic, given what Musk has said about the 2nd row seats, that the 2nd row seats will be the reason why I cancel my reservation (if anything):

- "And then the second row on the Model X… is a sculptural beauty. They’re amazing. They are the nicest second row seats you’ve ever seen in any car ever. That actually might have been harder than the door." (February)
- "I don’t want to sort of name specific suppliers, but our biggest challenges are with the second row seat, which is, it’s an amazing seat, like a sculptural work of art, but a very tricky thing to get right." (August)

Having mulled over the new renderings in my sleep - I'm still leaning towards canceling. If the cargo space is only 70" with the seats all the way forward, that will be enough most of the time, but I find it hard to bring myself to spend so much money for a compromised vehicle.

 

[goneskiian]

Agree with much of the disapointment being expressed here regarding the lack of a folding second row. I would also like to hear what Elon's response to it all would be. Somehow, I doubt that we'll ever get one.

Back to the photos Nigel shared of the boxes and bike in the back of the X, would anyone with graphics skills (Yggdrasill maybe?) like to take a stab at the height of the loading opening? Hoping for at least 40".

Thanks!

 

[Yggdrasill]

Agree with much of the disapointment being expressed here regarding the lack of a folding second row. I would also like to hear what Elon's response to it all would be. Somehow, I doubt that we'll ever get one.

Back to the photos Nigel shared of the boxes and bike in the back of the X, would anyone with graphics skills (Yggdrasill maybe?) like to take a stab at the height of the loading opening? Hoping for at least 40".

Thanks!

Did a quick esitimate:

103 cm = 40.5" But I doubt you'd be able to close the hatch if you have a 40" high box far back in the cargo area. The roof slope must be factored in.

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Also, "graphics skills" is an exaggeration! :tongue: (But I do have pretty good understanding of space.)

 

[goneskiian]

Did a quick esitimate:

View attachment 94463

103 cm = 40.5" But I doubt you'd be able to close the hatch if you have a 40" high box far back in the cargo area. The roof slope must be factored in.

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Also, "graphics skills" is an exaggeration! :tongue: (But I do have pretty good understanding of space.)

Wow! That was quick! Many thanks!

Not too worried about the very back as long as it's at least 28" with the hatch shut. What I want to put back there are bicycles with the front wheels off. I'll mount some fork mounts to something (hopefully more elegant than a 2 X 4, but that'll work in a pinch) and put it at the very back. May just end up bolting them to the rear lower cubby cover actually.

Hoping for enough space for this with the 2nd row able to seat people (need at least 62" in length) but not hopeful there.

Cheers!

 

[Yggdrasill]

Wow! That was quick! Many thanks!

No problem. But don't take it as absolute truth, it's just a estimate.

Not too worried about the very back as long as it's at least 28" with the hatch shut. What I want to put back there are bicycles with the front wheels off. I'll mount some fork mounts to something (hopefully more elegant than a 2 X 4, but that'll work in a pinch) and put it at the very back. May just end up bolting them to the rear lower cubby cover actually.

Hoping for enough space for this with the 2nd row able to seat people (need at least 62" in length) but not hopeful there.

Cheers!

You might get 62" diagonally with the 2nd row in use.

 

[BajaSurBoy]

Long time reader, first post. Getting excited that I might have a Model X by the end of the year US Reg #398. What seems to be lost in all of these posts is that this vehicle was always positioned as a performance luxury crossover not a full SUV. Optimized for people hauling not 2x10's. If you need to haul lumber or tow 10,000 lbs. rent a truck or get home depot to deliver it. What I really liked about the prototype was that with the 3rd row being used There was still a lot of storage in the back and if the frunk holds 2 golf bags, Yahoo! It appears you would need get a very large SUV like suburban to seat 7 and gear for a weekend get away which the X appears to be able to accomplish. I have had several 7 passenger SUV's, Cad SRX and Q7 and they could only accommodate a single row of grocery bags with third row in use, hence the need for a torpedo. I anticipate 98% of the time the third row will not be in use and I can pack everything 5 people would need inside and in the frunk without needing a torpedo. Also bikes in the back are more aerodynamic than on the roof. All of this in what will be the best handling crossover on the planet and never go to a gas station again, second yahoo! The model X will not be the perfect vehicle for everyone and if it is not for you do not buy one. It appears to suit my needs perfectly.

On another note, Does anyone know if you need an invite to attend the Sept. 29th first reveal? I live 30 minutes from the plant and would like to attend.

 

[FlasherZ]

Okay, then. I can respect that.

Do you share ZachShahan's view that *zero* evidence for given position beats *greater than zero* evidence to the contrary?

The same applies to me - even the most basic of statistics courses will tell you that polls predicated on bad data analysis is worse than no data at all. From Essentials of Statistics, 5th ed., by Triola:

* Sampling Method: With voluntary response samples (self-selected samples), we can draw valid conclusions only about the specific group of people who chose to participate; nevertheless, such samples are often incorrectly used to assert or imply conclusions about a larger population. From a statistical viewpoint, such a sample is fundamentally flawed and should not be used for making general statements about a larger population.

* Small Samples: Conclusions should not be based on samples that are far too small.

* Loaded Questions: If survey questions are not worded carefully, the results of a study can be misleading.

* Order of Questions: Sometimes survey questions are unintentionally loaded by such factors as the order of the items being considered.

And yes, it also drives me nuts when improper application of statistics is made; it has been implied that the poll here reflects the larger population of owners. Even after it was pointed out, people are still saying "yes, but can't you see that 57% vs. 26%?!!!?!!" So yes, we know that 57% of people who self-selected themselves to respond are vs. the 26% of people who self-selected themselves to respond.

That's like posting a poll on TMC... "what's your favorite color?"... list only 4 options, then suddenly declare that because 75% of the 100 people who responded selected blue, that 3/4ths of the world prefers blue. It is fundamentally flawed, and cannot be used as any evidence beyond the fact that people who are most passionate about this issue on TMC have voted. There's no guarantee there aren't ghost accounts or anti-Tesla accounts trying to make Tesla look bad, there's no evidence that it's a fair sample of potential Model X buyers, and there's no evidence that the options presented are properly selected and discrete.

 

[Yggdrasill]

175 reservation holders have responded to that poll, or about 0.65% of reservation holders. If 0.65% of the worlds population had responded to a poll about favourite colour, or 47 million people, I would accept that as an indicator as well.

 

[Yggdrasill]

On another note, Does anyone know if you need an invite to attend the Sept. 29th first reveal? I live 30 minutes from the plant and would like to attend.

It seems thus far that only employees, the buyers and maybe some special guests can attend. I wouldn't get my hopes up.

 

[FlasherZ]

175 reservation holders have responded to that poll, or about 0.65% of reservation holders. If 0.65% of the worlds population had responded to a poll about favourite colour, or 47 million people, I would accept that as an indicator as well.

I can only point out that from a statistical viewpoint, the poll means NOTHING and is worse than no data at all. You won't find a sizeable number of people who understand statistics who will disagree with that. I can't change what you believe, but would suggest you spend some time taking a look at the principles of statistics.

In the meantime, something that might provide some more of life's insights to those who believe the poll has any statistical value whatsoever:
Spurious Correlations

 

[WarpedOne]

and inability to haul large objects because the second row doesn't fold flat like it does in all other vehicles in its class, etc

Now lets see... how "much less" space is there because seats only move forward and tilt a bit compared to folded seats.
10 inch less? Hardly any more.
In my book a large object minus 10 inch is still a large object.

On this one tidbit alone I will completely disregard your complete post as pure FUD.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

...but then Tesla doesn't actually have to tell people the why, they need only say 'folding second row seats will be a future option'. :wink:

I agree with Krugerrand in the sense that if Tesla indeed does tell that, then we don't need to know why. It would be nice to know and perhaps we'll speculate or research which is fine, but I wouldn't reasonably expect anything more from Tesla in that case. I actually hope Tesla tells us that - "folding second row seats will be a future option" - on September 29th, so people can make decisions on waiting etc.

"Why" is important mostly in the cases where we don't have such definitive statements from Tesla (or we have a reason to doubt the statement from Tesla). In those cases understanding "why" helps us estimate whether or not something will or will not likely happen in the future.

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Now lets see... how "much less" space is there because seats only move forward and tilt a bit compared to folded seats.
10 inch less? Hardly any more.
In my book a large object minus 10 inch is still a large object.

On this one tidbit alone I will completely disregard your complete post as pure FUD.

It does stop one from moving such long but narrow items that previously could be transported by folding the middle seat and letting them extend all the way to the front. This is not an insignificant limitation - unless Tesla offers a ski hatch in the second row, which might help a little.

Also, most of us probably have moved large items by moving the driver's and especially front passengers seat as forward as reasonably possible - this will not be possible when the second row moving will be limited by its rails and probably won't be able to extend as much forward as the front passenger seat.

All this in addition to the, what, 10-15 inches lost because of the second row.

Finally, there is the question of the floor dropping right after the folded third row, making supporting long cargo a harder than usual target.