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New renderings of storage space and 2nd row seats! (9/15)

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Then ask yourself why would they not to make the seat foldable? Don't you think there must be conflicts with other things that are more useful to people they want the seat to do? Or you think the designers just hate you and want to make you suffer?
Probably Tesla ran out of time. They just weren't able to get the seats to do everything they hoped before launch.

Seats really seem to be one of Tesla's biggest challenges. I keep thinking back to the Model S next gen rear seats. I'm pretty sure they were shelved because they didn't fold flat. Now the same exact thing happens with the Model X.
 
What people seem to be missing here is that with the Falcon doors the second row seat belts are completely contained in the seat, Not attached to the frame in 2 places as is the case with most other SUV's/CUV's. I imagine They could not meet safety and crash test requirements with a folding seat.
 
What people seem to be missing here is that with the Falcon doors the second row seat belts are completely contained in the seat, Not attached to the frame in 2 places as is the case with most other SUV's/CUV's. I imagine They could not meet safety and crash test requirements with a folding seat.

Hasn't been missed. Has been discussed as a possibility for the change multiple times.
 
I'd be happier if folks in this thread spent less time arguing that what others want is or not appropriate to want/need.
We can argue what is fair to expect or not, or if those expectations have been managed well, etc
But if I want to put farming gear in a luxury CUV its my problem.
I am optimistic that the X will be both different than originally imagined by me AND will suit needs. We don't even know what the production options or baselines are yet.
Maybe 1-2 years from now sig owners will be complaining they are stuck with the "A" series seats while new buyers are getting the D-seats by default.

I hope Tesla continues to improve the careful management of expectations as products go through an innovative evolution, and not viceversa (slowing evolution because it simplifies expectation mgmt)
 
No polls on TMC are statistically valid as they suffer from self-selection bias. Those who don't care about the doors are less likely to take the poll compared to those who feel more passionate about the topic. So yes, the results are not statistically valid and will not represent the larger body of Model X purchasers.

That said, there are a couple of notable differences: the doors poll is structured differently and more neutrally. It asks "which door style would you prefer, given what we know today", an independent choice with a more neutral tone. Relativity between options is less of an issue with that poll, versus the seats poll, although as noted it won't capture the apathy votes. The lack of discreteness in the answers (overlapping answers between sliding / standard / either) is also an issue. Either way, statistically, the results are invalid when attempting to draw conclusions about the larger pool of Model X customers from that poll because it is self-selected.

The seats poll suffers from another bias in the way the answers are structured, because it asks if the option is a deal-breaker to the pollee. This will place extra weight on those who consider it a deal-breaker, and those who do not consider it to be a deal breaker are considerably less likely to vote in the poll (because they're more apathetic). It is designed with a loaded question, and the lack of the apathetic vote will show more bias toward the non-apathetic vote. However, even if you correct that, it still suffers from self-selection and small sample size.

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Uhh, no clean-up needed. NONE of the text you quoted was toward bonnie and they're not attacks - and you have quoted my text completely out of context. I did not call anyone a name, and I called BS where it was present. Read the entire post again and note the multiple quoted text sections and their authors, it's to several different authors (bonnie gave a constructive note, to which I responded constructively; hpham007 said there was no bias, which is just wrong, period; Yggdrasil said there was no selection bias, which is again just wrong, period; and rdalcanto said that because Model S's executive rear seat option didn't have a great uptake that it means all Model X customers want folded seats, which is false logic as well. To help, I've even quoted a statistics textbook that says so, to which I was told I was wrong and TMC polls are indeed sound scientifically. I called BS on that; it's not an attack, it's the truth. Otherwise, find me a statistician who says that self-selected polls with small samples and loaded questions are statistically valid. Maybe political pollsters, but not anyone with a shred of credibility in statistics.

And what does the last one mean? It means that some of the posts here are suggesting that Tesla just randomly decided one day to take away folding seats for the hell of it just to piss off some customers, and fail to recognize that it's likely a trade-off that had to be made. They're unhappy with which direction the trade-off went - and it's okay for them to be angry - until they suggest that every other Tesla customer is just like them and therefore there will be millions and millions of cancellations and OMG the company is going to DIE!!!11!!11!!! (Because a flawed TMC poll that suffers from tremendous self-selection, loaded-question bias says so!)

I think it sucks Tesla had to make a trade-off. I would like folding second-row seats. I likely will not cancel because I can't get a cargo van storage space, others will. I know how frustrated they must be, having either $5,000 or $40,000 tied up for a couple of years and learning that Tesla couldn't accomplish its Big Hairy Audacious Goal at release time, especially after showing their goal in a slide from 18 months ago during the design phase. It sucks when you can't accomplish everything you want in the first landing. But to suggest that Tesla doesn't know what it's doing, or that the company is dead because it had to make this trade-off, seems improper at this time with the information we have. I hope everyone gets their cargo van capability eventually, it would make my life easier for those times I need it. 99% of the time, though, I will probably make better use of the additional room that is provided at the base of the second-row seats when compared to the folding seats.

I'm not saying that those who are passionate about wanting folding second row seats are wrong - in fact, for their specific situation, they're right for their specific situation, and it's a deeply personal element. What has been wrong here is the reliance upon bad statistics and/or some vocal opinions in this thread to attempt to extrapolate to the broader Model X customer base. We can all agree there will be some level of people who are angry and who will cancel; there has been no credible evidence offered as to the magnitude of that, along with the alternatives. That doesn't minimize those who have posted their opinions here - those are anecdotes that Tesla can consider, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

I also want to thank you for taking the time to further explain this matter, use a reference, and generally help to educate others. There's a lot that just about any human thinks is logical regarding polls and statistics until they take good courses on the matter and learn to be false, and there's a lot of nuance in the wording of polls that can have a strong effect on the results. I think this is quite an important topic, and one that the public should be better educated on without having to take courses on the subject in college, in a master's program, and/or in a PhD program. Alas, it is complicated, involves a lot of math, and scares people.... But it's too bad some of the fundamentals are not better taught as a standard in high schools.

I will simply repeat more or less what I said before: That poll can certainly be enjoyed as a form of entertainment, but nobody should be looking for answers from it.

But I also agree with vandacca that people here may well be able to change Tesla products by voicing their concerns here. I've seen on numerous occasions that customers have quickly gotten problems resolved after posting about them here -- problems that they couldn't get resolved beforehand via other avenues. Tesla has requested that posts and even entire threads be removed. After all the comments about X mule drivers wearing plaid shirts, Elon said Roadster 2.0 would have Maximum Plaid as an improvement over Ludicrous Mode. ;) In all seriousness, I have no idea to what extent Tesla sees/watches posts here, but it seems that, if enough is made of something here, it is heard... and often dealt with. I'd be extremely surprised if Tesla wasn't aware of the significant backlash here from at least a handful of big supporters regarding the inability of the seats to fold flat.

But I also agree that, like you said, Tesla didn't carelessly make a decision to change that. The key people must have given a ton of thought to it -- surely more than we have -- and hopefully done good research to determine the best move. I have confidence they chose the best option. But I'm also sorry for the reservation holders who were counting on something else, had the switcharoo pulled on them, and are unhappy with the result... and may even decide to cancel their reservations. That is a real shame, and it could have been prevented (in a theoretical vacuum, as it may be) if Tesla had been a bit more cautious with its wording and promises. Clearly, if something throws a wrench in your plans, that's hard to know ahead of time, but Tesla would be wise to not promise things before they are genuinely ready for production, and to not make grand and absolute statements like "the production vehicle will be better then the concept in every conceivable way" (not a direct quote, btw). Making statements like that is really asking for trouble. But I think we all know where such a statement comes from -- it comes from high ideals, high aspirations, and the intention to do better by customers than is the norm... and even better than any other company. Those are things the majority of us support, and things that make us love Tesla (and Elon, of course). Things just need to be communicated in a somewhat more cautious way that takes into account the unpredictability of life. From listening to Elon speak dozens and dozens of times, I think he is actually very cautious in his statements -- much more than the norm. And it's nice not to hear the nonsense corporate talk that dominates these days. But he slipped up here, and some would say he slipped up really, really badly. I think he will learn from it. He tends to. And I'll just say again that I feel bad for anyone who got the short end of the stick because of this slip.
 
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Again, the prototypes were just that; prototypes. Probably marketed also to have max appeal. But when they transitioned from prototype to real vehicle, they had to make some compromises.
And what you and many others seem to ignore is that there were clear messages from Elon and Tesla directed at the reservation holders that clearly stated that the second row would fold flat and that the final car would exceed what was shown (including Elon's tweet deriding vendors whose products don't live up to the prototypes.

Fundamentally here is what I don't get. Why are so many people here getting all worked up that some of us have logical, factual and consistent criticism of Tesla.
You do not get to decide if I need a folding rear seat. Seriously. You don't. And you don't get to redefine what Tesla clearly stated.

So stop telling reservation holders that they are wrong to voice their displeasure with the broken promises.

Feel free to post "Yay, I love the Model X, it's perfect! I don't have a reservation and no plans to buy one but it's the best car ever made. YAY!".
But stop posting posts telling other that they are wrong in their response to what's been happening.

This is directed not just at jomo25 (to whom I responded here) but to quite a few others like eloder and CarlK
 
And what you and many others seem to ignore is that there were clear messages from Elon and Tesla directed at the reservation holders that clearly stated that the second row would fold flat and that the final car would exceed what was shown (including Elon's tweet deriding vendors whose products don't live up to the prototypes.

Fundamentally here is what I don't get. Why are so many people here getting all worked up that some of us have logical, factual and consistent criticism of Tesla.
You do not get to decide if I need a folding rear seat. Seriously. You don't. And you don't get to redefine what Tesla clearly stated.

So stop telling reservation holders that they are wrong to voice their displeasure with the broken promises.

Feel free to post "Yay, I love the Model X, it's perfect! I don't have a reservation and no plans to buy one but it's the best car ever made. YAY!".
But stop posting posts telling other that they are wrong in their response to what's been happening.

This is directed not just at jomo25 (to whom I responded here) but to quite a few others like eloder and CarlK

WTF? Where do I do any of what you accuse me of doing? Get off it.
 
Second row looks great. Each of the three seats seems super comfortable, can independently recline and slide front and back . They also offer extra room under the seats for a briefcase, backpack or other personal items.

Just the only thing one cannot do is to fold flat for carrying very long items flat. Overall, I think it's a good compromise.
 
Fundamentally here is what I don't get. Why are so many people here getting all worked up that some of us have logical, factual and consistent criticism of Tesla.
You do not get to decide if I need a folding rear seat. Seriously. You don't. And you don't get to redefine what Tesla clearly stated.

So stop telling reservation holders that they are wrong to voice their displeasure with the broken promises.

I think that Tesla is like the hometown sports team to many of us here at TMC, especially to those who are Tesla vehicle owners, shareholders (disclosure: I am a shareholder, albeit a very small one), or both. There is a tendency to defend one's team.

I see this a lot in Mac Rumors from some of the Apple people. When reports of iPhone 6 and 6+ bending started to appear on the Internet, the Apple loyalists attacked anyone who suggested there was a problem, and blamed iPhone 6 users for abusing their phones. A year later, when Apple announced that the new 6S and 6S+ upgrades used stronger 7000-series aluminum, and the unibody frame was obviously reinforced with thicker aluminum around the bending area (near volume buttons), the loyalists still attack anyone who suggest that there was a problem with the iPhone 6.

The same happened with the 16GB flash memory issue. People complained that 16GB was insufficient for a high-end phone, especially with iOS and apps becoming more and more bloated. Apple loyalists relentlessly denied the issue and attacked any critics.

I do not think that this kind of advocacy is useful for either Apple or Tesla products.

No company gets it 100% right all the time. That is just reality. It is better to voice objections in order to provide feedback. This leads to improvement of the product for everyone.
 
Feel free to post "Yay, I love the Model X, it's perfect! I don't have a reservation and no plans to buy one but it's the best car ever made. YAY!".
But stop posting posts telling other that they are wrong in their response to what's been happening.


I have an interest in this company as a shareholder and as a future customer. Tesla has proven themselves with the Model S and I do not want them to cave to decisions that would degrade their product. I'm confident the amazing engineers who pulled off the Model S have done much better for the MX given that they had substantially more resources and time.

As someone else said, it's not like there are engineers sitting in an office, laughing at people complaining about the second-row seats. They didn't do this to offend you, or anyone else. They did it because there were likely far too many compromises.

You do not get to decide if I need a folding rear seat. Seriously. You don't. And you don't get to redefine what Tesla clearly stated.


You clearly think you need one, and you're very welcome to think that. However, we also have the right to say that you should just buy a car that matches your needs, and not try to change an existing car in a way that'd cause compromises related to safety/comfort/functionality.

I'm not telling you to what you need or don't need, but I'm just telling you that you should buy a car that meets your needs.
 
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Probably Tesla ran out of time. They just weren't able to get the seats to do everything they hoped before launch.

Seats really seem to be one of Tesla's biggest challenges. I keep thinking back to the Model S next gen rear seats. I'm pretty sure they were shelved because they didn't fold flat. Now the same exact thing happens with the Model X.

Elon said the seat, not the FWD, was the reason for the long delay and the car is the most difficult thing to make, all in one paragraph if not one sentence. That means if someone want to add a folding capability we will need to wait for even longer to see the car, if ever. Tesla could make a thin bench seat that fold flat like in the prototype but I'm sure they want something better, and hopefully it will be much better.

And what you and many others seem to ignore is that there were clear messages from Elon and Tesla directed at the reservation holders that clearly stated that the second row would fold flat and that the final car would exceed what was shown (including Elon's tweet deriding vendors whose products don't live up to the prototypes.

Fundamentally here is what I don't get. Why are so many people here getting all worked up that some of us have logical, factual and consistent criticism of Tesla.
You do not get to decide if I need a folding rear seat. Seriously. You don't. And you don't get to redefine what Tesla clearly stated.

Because it is not logical, factual and consistent criticism when you don't know all the facts. Tesla wants to make something even better than what was shown in the prototy years ago. Elon said the final product will be better than, not the same as, the prototype. That's how Tesla always do things. You can't hold them hostage and not let progress to happen.
 
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You think dog owners don't have a backyard to let dogs roam or have a park nearby?
I can't believe we're even having this conversation, but even though I am not a dog owner, I can assure you that there are thousands of urban dog owners who have neither a "backyard" or a "park nearby".
Back on topic: it is certainly good marketing to design a product to appear to a broad group of potential buyers, and I hope the X turns out to have such appeal. But right now none of us has seen a production car up close and had the opportunity to try out the interior features and usability. Hopefully in a few weeks we will be able to do so.
 
Elon said the seat, not the FWD, was the reason for the long delay and the car is the most difficult thing to make, all in one paragraph if not on sentence. That means if someone want to add a folding capability we will need to wait for even long to see the car, if ever. Tesla could make a thin bench seat that fold flat like in the prototype but I'm sure they want something better, and hopefully much better.



Because it is not logical, factual and consistent criticism when you don't know all the facts. Tesla wants to make something even better than what was shown in the prototy years ago you can't hold them hostage and not let progress to happen.
Opinions will certainly differ on whether changing the second row seats from folding to non folding is 'better'. I certainly will wait for the reveal to finalize my own opinion whether, on the whole, the production vehicle is better than the prototype. So far we do know (and I have personally asked NASales) from multiple sources that the second row seats do not fold like the prototype and as described in several TM communications since the prototype reveal. So, non folding seats are fact(ual) and it appears logical to me that people who hold reservations can have an opinion about that change from the prototype.
 
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I can't believe we're even having this conversation, but even though I am not a dog owner, I can assure you that there are thousands of urban dog owners who have neither a "backyard" or a "park nearby".

And they could not walk the dogs or hire someone to do that? And they need to use back of a car to give dogs good space to roam? And 1.5 feet less space would choke the dog? That dog excuse is just absurd.

that people who hold reservations can have an opinion about that change from the prototype.

They sure can have an opinion long as the opinion is how they like it or not but not that Tesla screwed it for everyone without having all the facts being known.
 
I have an interest in this company as a shareholder and as a future customer.

You are not unique in this forum for your investment (both psychologically and financially) in Tesla. In fact, I'd argue that given you're not currently an owner, you're probably somewhere in the less-invested half of the forum participants. Don't think that you're looking out for them by defending them. As I've mentioned in another thread (or this one?), we're all fans. We wouldn't be members here and spending our time here unless we were. So don't hide behind your support of the company - some of our concerns about these decisions are specifically based on the fact that we also want this company to succeed.

I don't need fold flat seats, and I'll still buy without them. But I recognize this might be a failing of Tesla and could put them in a negative light. I have concerns about that, because I want to keep buying Tesla vehicles.

TL;DR: We're on the same team. Let's all get along.
 
And they could not walk the dogs or hire someone to do that? And they need to use back of a car to give dogs good space to roam? And 1.5 feet less space would choke the dog? That dog excuse is just absurd.

They sure can have an opinion long as the opinion is how they like it or not but not that Tesla screwed it for everyone without having all the facts being known.

I do not believe I, or Dirk, (who you responded to initially) indicated that 'Tesla screwed it for everyone'. There are many people that don't care about the seats ( non scientific poll from another thread) and some that probably like the appearance of the production seats better than the prototype ones.

My opinion is that we will probably never be told the rationale for changing the seats. We will probably only be left with speculating.
 
Apologies if I offend anyone, but I think we need to step back a little. There are a handful of people still posting here. Several of them have a reservation and are trying to decide what to do. I personally think that this thread should shift back to helping them -- via new screenshots, facts, states from Tesla personnel, etc.

Some of us here are simply passionate about Tesla and the Model X launch. I think we've thoroughly explained that the broader picture is important to keep in mind, Tesla clearly had to make a compromise on the seats folding due to other factors/needs/interests, and we primarily have faith that the Tesla engineers and Elon prioritized correctly.

Clearly, many of us are also sorry for the reservation holders who were counting on folding seats, but those are apparently out, so let's move on.

And it seems there's at least one troll here, but what can you do -- this is the internet today. Thanks to Nigel & others for at least calling them out. (We ban them on my sites, but clever ones are good at sticking around by just barely not branding themselves trolls. :D)

I'm eager to find out more facts and Tesla quotes as they come out and to hear from reservation holders as they make decisions. I'm not eager to see any more dead horses beat incessantly by a nonstop argument over approximately 3 topics. (I know, I don't have to follow this thread, but like I said, I'm eager to see the other posts.)
 
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