New renderings of storage space and 2nd row seats! (9/15)

[AnxietyRanger]

Of course, if so then the issue is moot.

Point is if some new feature of the seats proves utterly incompatible with folding, they may still, all things considered, turn out to be better.

Of course - and let's hope that happens still.

The prototype seats had adjustable seat backs and headrests - and folding - none of which the current second row seems to have. The prototype seats were already on pedastals and moved individually, so the new seats need quite a bit of something new to be better IMO. Maybe ventilation with seat massage could constitute as such a feature.

 

[ZachShahan]

-eye roll- Can anyone explain why it makes some men feel better about themselves to put down women as a group? Always a mystery to me.

For the rest of you, I have confirmed Sig #2, order locked down, off we go. (And I did it all by myself without someone telling me what to pick. I knew what I wanted. Yep. Really.)

Congrats! 7 seats, insane acceleration, falcon-wing doors, and all electric -- I can't imagine not being blown away. Hope it works out well for all of your uses. Enjoy, when you get it!

 

[AnOutsider]

I may be coming around on this one; not necessarily to the "folding" argument, but the "space" argument. The evidence seems to point to the availability of a lot of space as a consistent theme, which could be read as a promise. I think Tesla could probably do themselves a big favor by having someone take the George B. role and say "hey, so here's how it happened... we tried, we couldn't succeed. We had to make a tough call, and while we know some might be disappointed, we had to go this direction, but we continue to work on it."

I think that would put a lot of folks at ease. #1 it would answer the question of what's going on with the folding (is it coming? should I hold off for production?), and #2 I think everyone would understand. Personally, I'd prefer it over some marketing BS like "these seats are magnificent sculptural pieces of art!". Just be real.

In any case, here's to hoping that everyone will know more soon.

 

[ZachShahan]

This is an interesting point that comes up on the forum pretty frequently.

Is a design intention a promise?

When Tesla said that it wanted to put lighted vanity mirrors in place (that never appeared), was that a promise? a desire? a design intention?

When Tesla said during the reveal that Model X would have a large cargo carrying capacity, was that a promise? a desire? a design intention?
When Tesla showed a slide that suggested the seats would fold, was that a promise? a desire? a design intention?

So is Tesla not permitted to change anything they've said in the past? I know the response of many typical executives to that: then we won't say anything at all, you get what you get and you don't throw a fit (Apple handles things this way).

If Tesla had assigned a communications rep (like George B did in the early days) to respond to the "hot" threads here, describing the company's specific trade-offs on the hot-button items, would that help? Or would Tesla still get some of the posters we've seen here saying "that's a complete deal-breaker, Tesla's completely stupid, they'll be out of business next week because my preference wasn't chosen in the trade-off!"

I know they must be struggling with that, too. They've seen hundreds of their intentions get mercilessly killed by others when they couldn't meet a date, or couldn't make something work. On the seats thing, I assume they ran into serious problems and had to make a tough trade-off decision, knowing some customers would be unhappy and would cancel - but c'est la vie.

(Not complaining about your post, Dirk, just something that bothers me. I view Tesla as one of the ultimate "agile" companies who can practice continuous delivery without using model year as a crutch, but I'm also concerned that Tesla's customers will drive it toward that type of an approach. I've said it in other threads on Model S as well. I believe their business model is the future, but customers will have to adapt as well.)

Great context and points. This seems to be something we're learning: "customers will have to adapt as well." The way you've laid it out paints a bigger picture and has helped me to think about Tesla's predicament and decisions, so I imagine it did the same for others.

I just think that if you've said "seats fold flat" a few times, and specifically to reservation holders, you should tell them when that changes. But I think the consensus is that unforeseen challenges killed the folding somewhere toward the end, at which point it may just make more sense to wait.

I have thought a few times that Tesla might be better off switching to an Apple-like approach to revealing new products.

And I totally didn't see you as monopolizing the page, especially since you provided so much good input and context.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I need help from Eds to make my decision.

Eds - are we getting compromised seats at first and are folding seats coming later in future production?



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I think that would put a lot of folks at ease. #1 it would answer the question of what's going on with the folding (is it coming? should I hold off for production?), and #2 I think everyone would understand. Personally, I'd prefer it over some marketing BS like "these seats are magnificent sculptural pieces of art!". Just be real.

In any case, here's to hoping that everyone will know more soon.

I am still hoping Tesla might shed light on this on September 29th (or whenever the final unveil happens).

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It's a possibility, yes, but to me it seems unlikely.

Often times disruptive and innovative companies face opposition even from their fans and supporters when they launch new products or features. Often it turns out that they knew what we really wanted even though we thought we knew what we wanted. This is especially true when the new feature differs from that which we're used to being the norm.

I find it more likely Tesla skipped folding for now due to issues than by choice. But we agree to disagree I'm sure.

As for the second point, we must separate disruptive innovation that succeeds because of some particular from those that succeed despite of it.

Original iPhone was good enough that is succeeded despite of great limitations. Most of those limitations were later removed. It's limitations were not the reason for success, it's greatness in usability, web browsing etc. was the reason.

Model X may do great too, but it may not be because it has a great second row, it may be despite its limited second row - and future production may remove those limitations from second row while retaining greatness in other parts of the car.

 

[dirkhh]

This is an interesting point that comes up on the forum pretty frequently.

Is a design intention a promise?

When Tesla said that it wanted to put lighted vanity mirrors in place (that never appeared), was that a promise? a desire? a design intention?

When Tesla said during the reveal that Model X would have a large cargo carrying capacity, was that a promise? a desire? a design intention?
When Tesla showed a slide that suggested the seats would fold, was that a promise? a desire? a design intention?
(Not complaining about your post, Dirk, just something that bothers me. I view Tesla as one of the ultimate "agile" companies who can practice continuous delivery without using model year as a crutch, but I'm also concerned that Tesla's customers will drive it toward that type of an approach. I've said it in other threads on Model S as well. I believe their business model is the future, but customers will have to adapt as well.)

Since you call me out...
When Tesla sent me an email on June 16 of last year that said "You’ll also be able to fold down the second and third rows to create a flat platform for storage." - that does seem like a promise to me. After all, they were sending it to me because I had already given them money to reserve one of these cars.
Sure they can change their mind. I don't have a written contract that says "we will give you a car with the following features". I'm basically just an idiot who trusted them that they would deliver what they promise. Or at least that they would have the decency to communicate with me (or the Sig reservation holders) in an even remotely useful way.
What is happening right now with Model X and the 7.0 beta leaks is that we are moving very quickly from Tesla being a company that I admire to Tesla being a company that I am very weary of and no longer trust.
If I were Tesla and some fraction of the people who used to be my biggest supporters, who've shown this support by buying cars and reserving cars that didn't even exist (and gave me an interest free loan to do so) went instead to being weary and no longer trusting me? I'd be concerned.

 

[Krugerrand]

If folding second row comes in 6-12 months, original Model X will seem quite compromised in comparison. Which of course our good friend and oracle Eds claimed.

I really wish you'd stop doing 'this' but you won't, so I'll just correct you.

...original Model X will seem compromised in comparison to those people who place significantly more importance on folding second row seats for maximum flat flooring cargo space versus all other features like 5*+ safety rating, superior ingress/egress, superior seating comfort etc...

 

[AnOutsider]

Mod Note: Moved some posts to the poll thread on folding seats. Please keep discussion there from here on out.

How important is it for you that the 2nd row seats of the Model X are stowable?

Also moved some posts to snippiness. Apologies to those that may have gotten caught in the move due to quotes.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I really wish you'd stop doing 'this' but you won't, so I'll just correct you.

...original Model X will seem compromised in comparison to those people who place significantly more importance on folding second row seats for maximum flat flooring cargo space versus all other features like 5*+ safety rating, superior ingress/egress, superior seating comfort etc...

No.

The question is: Will original Model X seem compromised in seat folding compared to Model X 6-12 months later.

Unless you expect the Model X 6-12 months later would suddenly lack all the things you mention.

Maybe Model X won't get folding in the ballpark of a year. That too would be very useful to know.

 

[ohmman]

I really wish you'd stop doing 'this' but you won't, so I'll just correct you.

...original Model X will seem compromised in comparison to those people who place significantly more importance on folding second row seats for maximum flat flooring cargo space versus all other features like 5*+ safety rating, superior ingress/egress, superior seating comfort etc...

And I'll "correct" you. You're assuming folding will, for some reason, come at the costs you've listed. If it doesn't, then AR's statement be relatively true, but would better read with the term "less functional" instead of "compromised".

To be clear, I don't pretend to know what Tesla will do with the seats, or why they've done what they've done (whatever that is). Plus, it's their decision, as it's their vehicle. I do think it would be nice when discussing these things if we weren't as provocative ("compromised", "I'll just correct you"), though.

 

[Krugerrand]

Unless you expect the Model X 6-12 months later would suddenly lack all the things you mention.

No.

That's you living in Maybe World again, beating the speculation drum over our heads until we're comatose and start thinking it's a fact. I guarantee there will be no flat folding seats in Model X UNLESS all other more important features (per Tesla - not you or anyone else) are met. If you've paid attention at all, you'd know that's how Elon Musk works. You don't have to like it, but if you're going to support Tesla in any fashion, you do have to accept that's how it all works.

The fact is after all this time, no engineer or engineering group have solved the problem, EVER, spanning decades of car manufacturing. For starters, flat folding seats by their very nature of being able to fold flat are significantly less comfortable. You've gone on about how the prototype seats did this and that, had that, had this. Look at them again. They are thinly padded, lack contour, and frankly look like they'd be as comfortable as sitting on a piece of plywood. After all the flak Tesla got about not having enough bolstering/support in their first gen seats in the Model S, there's zero chance Tesla will make that same choice in the Model X, no matter how much foul crying there is. I could go on with other examples and reasons, but I know you get the point.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Compromised is the wording Eds used.

In Eds we trust.

 

[Krugerrand]

And I'll "correct" you. You're assuming folding will, for some reason, come at the costs you've listed. If it doesn't, then AR's statement be relatively true, but would better read with the term "less functional" instead of "compromised".

I don't have to assume, we have decades of results and nobody has solved the problem. And to date, neither have Tesla.

Flat folding seats that are comfy as all getout.
Flat folding seats that are independent.
Flat folding seats that can have seat belts anchored to them AND get at least a 5* safety rating.
Flat folding seats that do whatever else we don't know yet that the current seats do.

 

[30seconds]

I would disagree, the back seats of the Model S are total fine.

 

[ohmman]

I don't have to assume, we have decades of results and nobody has solved the problem. And to date, neither have Tesla.

Flat folding seats that are comfy as all getout.
Flat folding seats that are independent.
Flat folding seats that can have seat belts anchored to them AND get at least a 5* safety rating.
Flat folding seats that do whatever else we don't know yet that the current seats do.

You're assuming anyway. And you seem to have ignored the section of my post where I mentioned it might be worthwhile to be less provocative. But I've got two kids; I'm used to nobody listening to me. :biggrin:

 

[dirkhh]

You're assuming anyway. And you seem to have ignored the section of my post where I mentioned it might be worthwhile to be less provocative. But I've got two kids; I'm used to nobody listening to me. :biggrin:

My kids listen a lot better and seem to have better grasps of math, politeness, or reality than some people here... they are almost 11

 

[Krugerrand]

And you seem to have ignored the section of my post where I mentioned it might be worthwhile to be less provocative. But I've got two kids; I'm used to nobody listening to me. :biggrin:

Just because I didn't address another part of your post, doesn't mean I didn't read it and am ignoring. I'd love for people to be less provocative, but it's not going to happen. Oops, there I go assuming again a long withstanding fact, this time about the human race. Been married forever, know all about selective hearing/listening et al, tyvm. Next.

 

[PGeer]

Well, my order will be locked in and off to the factory as of Monday. I have no idea about any of the "big surprises" my DES has mentioned. I don't know exactly how the seats will work. So I suppose I'm a bit of a (happy and willing) guinea pig :wink:.

Someone mentioned a few pages ago that what Tesla really needs right now are a group of SIGs who are willing to move ahead sight unseen, because they need to get a certain number of cars through production to get it all right.

Hopefully and probably, Tesla will allow the relatively small number of early sigs who would rather wait until after the reveal to do so. IMO, most people are going to be delighted by this car. It won't be perfect, no doubt some expectations won't be met, but my guess is that they'll exceed other expectations that most of us didn't even realize we had.

Bottom line, I'm thrilled to be among this small group of guinea pigs. You can all thank us later for the huge sacrifice we are making. :biggrin:

 

[Krugerrand]

I would disagree, the back seats of the Model S are total fine.

Except for those people who've complained about them. :wink:

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Bottom line, I'm thrilled to be among this small group of guinea pigs. You can all thank us later for the huge sacrifice we are making. :biggrin:

Congrats! And I'll thank you now for being a brave souled guinea pig. Somebody has to do it, might as well be you (and Bonnie). :biggrin:

 

[vandacca]

I would disagree, the back seats of the Model S are totally fine.

I think this post sums it up the best. There is no right or wrong answer here, only a matter of perspective. Also, there are many shades of gray from really bad folding seats to pretty good folding seats. The pretty good folding seats might be good enough for 90+% of buyers and would have probably been the safe bet for Tesla to implement.

But because (as mentioned earlier by @Krugerrand, which I totally agree), Tesla got a lot of flak for their seats early on and now are out to prove themselves that they can have the best possible seats out there, bar none. So, they designed these amazing seats that are probably better than anything out there, but maybe they went too far and made too many compromises in that process.

I for one, can't wait to see them and see if I can make the production Model-X work for my needs. tick tock, tick tock.