new wall charger confusion

[shyboy]

I have reached out multiple electricians and received conflicting setups.

I moved into this house last year, so I am not sure what was done prior me moving in.
Most of the electricians told me to go with "no permit" since I already have a subpanel which seems like wasn't done by pulling permit so electricians are telling me that unless I get that panel issue fixes, it would put me in trouble by pulling the EV charger permit and later inspector will visit the site and will find out the sub-panel.

one electrician told me to replace the smaller panel with bigger panel and have 40feet 6/2 romex pulled and use the 60A breaker. This will require me to remove the smaller subpanel and replace with the bigger subpanel. ofcourse huge labor cost + extra sub panel cost involved here.

Other electricians told me to just remove 2 big breakers from the main panel and replace them with the slim breaker and that will give me the space to add a 60A new breaker to put TWC in garage and will use 6/2 romex. its seems to be a cheaper option, but scared since no permit no inspection, I am not sure it will overload the panel or what as first guy stated.


When I discussed this with the first electrician he told me that NO, the main panel is already on it limit utilization ( I think he meant by using the max watts or max amps) so he still pushes to replace the smaller subpanel to larger sub panel.

I more trust on the first electrician who seems to me be more professional but this contradicted info is throwing me off. What's the best way to take care this.

I also have a dryer outlet breaker 6 & 8, is this an easy route to pull another wire from the dryer outlet and have another outlet in my garage to use mobile connector? I am aware that it will cut down my charging speed to half (45a to 32a)

I posted some pictures here for reference and wondering what's the best and cheapest way to get sort this out.

TIA

 

[chnry]

Did you have any of these electricians do a load calculation? Seems like your panel is maxed out or even over loaded as is. Can't see your main breaker but based on the aluminum main wires. It looks like it's 100a service?

 

[Mrbrock]

What are all the 2 pole breakers in the main panel powering? You have 2x 60A, 1x 50A, and 4x 30A. It sounds like 1x 60A is the sub panel. If there are any large electric appliances you could replace with gas that would free up a circuit for your charger. Maybe not the full 60A but even 30A will charge your car overnight.

If the first electrician said your main panel is on limit utilization he probably meant the load calculation shows it is maxed out. If it is maxed out, that includes the load from the sub panel so replacing the sub panel with a larger one that would have space for a 60A EVSE breaker would mean it would likely be overloaded according to its load calculation and would require a larger breaker in the main panel would would exceed its load calculation limit.

The fact that no one wants to pull a permit without spending a lot of time and money to fix the sub panel issue and you seem to not want to spend that money leaves one option. A power sharing device for the dryer circuit like the Dryer Buddy. It sounds like the dryer outlet is not near where you want to charge so not sure if you could use a device like that with an extended hard wired circuit vs plugging into it directly. Also, your dryer outlet is 14-30 so you’d only get 24A from that plug, not 32A.

 

[Sophias_dad]

I'd wager you are already over the limit, presuming that's a 200A main. I'm seeing 2x60, 4x50(I think), and 1x30 amp two pole breakers, although one of the 50's seems to be turned off. (Yes, you need to do a proper load calculation too, its possible that half of those are for heating and half are for cooling and therefore some can be ignored). One of the 60's is most likely for the already overstuffed subpanel.

You aren't just allowed to hang another HPWC or outlet off the dryer circuit. You could definitely replace the dryer circuit with one that heads to the garage and an 14-50 or HPWC.

Every one of the electricians that wants to install 6 gauge romex for a 60 amp EV charging breaker should be refused any work. Its simply not allowed per the NEC. It probably won't burn your house down, but its still against the rules and insurance will refuse to pay if they find out. Maybe you don't care because that subpanel is already non-permitted it seems.

 

[jcanoe]

Re: the dryer circuit breakers 6 and 8, you can't add a second branch to this circuit. The 240V/30A dryer circuit must be dedicated to only one 30 amp receptacle.

You can't use #6 gauge NM-B (Romex) wire, in the US, with any breaker over 50 amps. To use a 60 amp breaker you would have to use #4 gauge NM-B wire or different wire such as THHN. (In Canada NM-B wire has a higher temperature rating.)

 

[Sophias_dad]

You can't use #6 gauge NM-B (Romex) wire, in the US, with any breaker over 50 amps. To use a 60 amp breaker you would have to use #4 gauge NM-B wire or different wire such as THHN. (In Canada NM-B wire has a higher temperature rating.)

I believe this isn't quite correct. I'm pretty sure you'd be allowed to use the round-up rule to use a 60 amp breaker with #6 romex, but only if you don't already know the thing being plugged in or connected is going to be a continuous load like an EV or kiln or something that is known to exceed the 55A rating of #6 romex.

 

[jcanoe]

I believe this isn't quite correct. I'm pretty sure you'd be allowed to use the round-up rule to use a 60 amp breaker with #6 romex, but only if you don't already know the thing being plugged in or connected is going to be a continuous load like an EV or kiln.

Yes; the prohibition against using #6 NM-B and a 60 amp breaker applies to continuous loads i.e. EV charging.

 

[howardnj]

Go on the Tesla website and choose a local licensed electrician electrician from that list. They will be familiar with local codes and pull the permit and arrange the final inspection. In addition, the electrician will do the load calculation and data form and submit that to your local utility. You may be eligible for BTM (behind the meter) installation reimbursement. Here in NJ that amounts to $1500.00

 

[shyboy]

Did you have any of these electricians do a load calculation? Seems like your panel is maxed out or even over loaded as is. Can't see your main breaker but based on the aluminum main wires. It looks like it's 100a service?

he did not do load test, he said he would like to do prior to perform the job.

The main breaker is 200amps

 

[Sophias_dad]

he did not do load test, he said he would like to do prior to perform the job.

The main breaker is 200amps

To be clear, its not a 'test' but a calculation that predicts expected loads. The calculation includes the square footage of the house, any big breakered loads(oven/stove/heat/ac/dryer/hot tub/pool heater), refrigerator and so on. If the electrician is doing his/her job correctly they'll go around to each big breakered device to see what it says it ACTUALLY uses via the nameplate rather than what the breaker is, since AC's and other big-motor'ed items will frequently have a breaker that is double(or more) than they actually take continually, and even heating-type devices(oven/stove/heat/dryer) will use much less than they have been wired for.

You could even do the load calculation yourself if you like, there are two published methods(a main and an alternate) I've seen and linked to from TMC before.

 

[shyboy]

I'd wager you are already over the limit, presuming that's a 200A main. I'm seeing 2x60, 4x50(I think), and 1x30 amp two pole breakers, although one of the 50's seems to be turned off.

The one turned off is for Oven, which I turned off due to the oven door broke and doesn't close properly, and we do not use the oven that much. we turn that on occasionally when we need to use the oven, once a month.

 

[shyboy]

To be clear, its not a 'test' but a calculation that predicts expected loads. The calculation includes the square footage of the house, any big breakered loads(oven/stove/heat/ac/dryer/hot tub/pool heater), refrigerator and so on. If the electrician is doing his/her job correctly they'll go around to each big breakered device to see what it says it ACTUALLY uses via the nameplate rather than what the breaker is, since AC's and other big-motor'ed items will frequently have a breaker that is double(or more) than they actually take continually, and even heating-type devices(oven/stove/heat/dryer) will use much less than they have been wired for.

You could even do the load calculation yourself if you like, there are two published methods(a main and an alternate) I've seen and linked to from TMC before.

Thank you for the details, I will definitely look into that, trying to see what load calculation the build submit to the county when they got the permit approval.

To continue my findings, I also ordered the Emporia energy monitor to actually see what's eating up and how much load is on each breaker and what time of the day etc etc.

 

[sewing1]

Perhaps you can get a USA federal income tax credit for a new panel upgrade.

Tax Credits for Your Home

Find eligible products and home improvements.

www.energystar.gov

 

[davewill]

If it were my house, I'd bite the bullet, have good electrician figure out what needs to be done to bring it all up to code, have it fixed and inspected. The last thing anyone needs is a house fire, or to suddenly have to bring it all up to code when a buyer has the house inspected and rejects the unpermitted work.

 

[exxxviii]

If it were my house, I'd bite the bullet, have good electrician figure out what needs to be done to bring it all up to code, have it fixed and inspected. The last thing anyone needs is a house fire, or to suddenly have to bring it all up to code when a buyer has the house inspected and rejects the unpermitted work.

Ditto this. Ideally, when you bought the house, your inspector would have called out some potential issues in your electrical panels. It is expensive to have a sub panel done right, but it is worth it. So, given the uncertainties and the need to add another big circuit, I would have an electrician do the whole enchaleda to bring your house up to code.

 

[MN-MS100D]

If you go the Emporia route, please read up on what is required by NEC code to show your inspector the results. Refer to 220.87 which allows measurement of the service for 1 year continuously--or if you meet the exception--30 days with several qualifiers attached. "Maximum Demand" is a term you need to fully understand when you present your findings to the inspector.

 

[Mrbrock]

As stated above, if there is any concern about insurance, you will likely need to bring the sub panel up to code and get it permitted. A good electrician will not touch your house without doing this. Anyone who suggests that it is fine as is should not be hired.

 

[shyboy]

I decided to use 6/2 and have 60amps breaker installed by replacing the 2 thick breakers to tandem breaker router.
I will install emporia and keep an eye on the load, and call the electrician if anything looks not normal.

I decided this due to if I have to fix the subpanel then I better just upgrade my main panel, which costing me 3k-4k.

 

[EVer Hopeful]

If it were my house, I'd bite the bullet, have good electrician figure out what needs to be done to bring it all up to code, have it fixed and inspected. The last thing anyone needs is a house fire, or to suddenly have to bring it all up to code when a buyer has the house inspected and rejects the unpermitted work.

This is a very good point and here's a question to illustrate it: When is the one time you get your car properly cleaned inside and out including the engine bay and the cupholders and vacuuming under the seats?

The answer of course is - When you're trying to sell it!


So you end up valeting the vehicle for someone else, much as you might also end up paying for the proper electrical work for the next buyer

You might as well do it now and enjoy the benefit yourself

 

[mswlogo]

I believe this isn't quite correct. I'm pretty sure you'd be allowed to use the round-up rule to use a 60 amp breaker with #6 romex, but only if you don't already know the thing being plugged in or connected is going to be a continuous load like an EV or kiln or something that is known to exceed the 55A rating of #6 romex.

True. But you’d set the Wall Connector to 50A circuit (40A charging). Since there is no 55A setting.

If it’s a 200A panel I doubt your over load limit. If it’s 100A panel, forget adding a 60A you need a new service. You might squeeze a 20-30A 240v though.

Regardless of load, your panels are at max for crowding. I’d seriously consider getting a new, much larger panel if 200A and a whole new service if 100A.

You can stretch / squeeze a smaller circuit but that is really packed already.

If already 200A a new Subpanel would be the next best option. But to me, that’s money down the drain. You need a new main panel and get rid of sub panel (band-aide).

Advice you got isn’t bad, but a major circuit might trigger bringing everything up to a better level. All for good reason. Varies by inspector. He might declare it already a mess.

So don’t think of it as cost to get your EV. It’s lumping in getting your panel cleaned up first.

It’s not terrible, but close and adding more is really pushing it.