New warning icon in energy app

[Max*]

I'll give you an example: A bit over a year ago, I started to notice that under no condition was I able to get my full 60 kW of re-gen. Even if I dropped my foot right off the accelerator at 70 MPH, the dial would just quiver around 35 kW. Coincidentally, I noticed that my Supercharging speed was very slow (even for an A-pack) maxing out at around 20 to 30 kW even with the pack SOC quite low. I was able to watch and note these numbers to report to my Service Center. Interestingly, my SC reported they could find nothing wrong. A few weeks later I had the main contactors fail in my battery and Tesla had to pull the pack apart to fix it. After that, I had full re-gen numbers and faster Supercharging once again. I assume the symptoms I was able to see with my calibrated re-gen meter was telling me that I had some sort of high resistance connection failure going on in my contactors (Too bad Tesla didn't conclude this before I had a roadside failure).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Tto be fair you could have diagnosed it from the current implementation too. You wouldn't be able to tell the SvC that it's 20kW, but you'd be able to tell them that the regen is half way between 50kw and 0kw, close to 20kW. So having extra precision wouldn't really help.

Now, if your argument was that you told the SvC that your regen maxed out at 27kW, and they went into their notes, and said "aha, yes, we have a pattern of regen failures at exactly 27kW, we know what this! Good thing it's 27kW and not 29kW, because that's a completely different animal" I would have said "OK, we need that precision back ASAP!"

 

[mknox]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I should point out that I have a pre-AP car and so still have the old style display. Maybe it's not as bad as it seems from the screen shots here. It just looked to me that there wasn't enough granularity to truly see what was going on. I still question the "dumbing down" of these displays, though. Even my energy use app has dropped the units on the y-axis of the graph. Why?

 

[Max*]

I should point out that I have a pre-AP car and so still have the old style display. Maybe it's not as bad as it seems from the screen shots here. It just looked to me that there wasn't enough granularity to truly see what was going on.

Here's a different shot, close up, with the regen limited from my car. The yellow line is dynamic, just like it was in 6.2. I would guesstimate it has the same levels of regen (6.2 wasn't continuous, there were maybe 3-5 steps of regen limiting, those same steps appear on 7.0).

So I'm maybe at 40kw of limiting?

I still question the "dumbing down" of these displays, though. Even my energy use app has dropped the units on the y-axis of the graph. Why?

I had a v7 pre-AP loaner, I thought you guys at least had the grid marks on both the X and Y axis's, we don't even have those. Not that I need it, but I found it odd that the two were so different.

For my driving style, the energy graph stays on for city driving for a quick glance, so that's all I really need from it. For roadtrips, the music goes on the !C and the "Trip" tab of the energy usage goes on the 17".

While it would probably be nice, and I can understand the want, for grid lines and labels on the X and Y axis on the IC, IIFF most people drive like I do, they're not complaining because when they actually need that info they pull up the 17" app.

 

[Andyw2100]

I would guesstimate it has the same levels of regen (6.2 wasn't continuous, there were maybe 3-5 steps of regen limiting, those same steps appear on 7.0).

I could be mistaken, but weren't the regen limits just 15, 30, and 45?

 

[bancroftc]

I had the two warning triangles show up the other day in my energy app as well. Right after I started my car. I did not have any dotted lines on regen or energy, they were normal. Just the warning triangles on top and bottom. They went away after a minute and everything seemed normal so I didn't bring it up. But I am curious what that was all about. Is it definitely related to lack of regen and energy (despite me not having dotted lines)?

 

[Max*]

I had the two warning triangles show up the other day in my energy app as well. Right after I started my car. I did not have any dotted lines on regen or energy, they were normal. Just the warning triangles on top and bottom. They went away after a minute and everything seemed normal so I didn't bring it up. But I am curious what that was all about. Is it definitely related to lack of regen and energy (despite me not having dotted lines)?

I've seen the same, they blink on and off and go away.

 

[Beckler]

What they should have at least is a 'simple' and 'advanced' mode for the entire UI. That way power users can have all the info they want and casual drivers who aren't interested are happy too. Better yet it would be fully customizable (within constraints). Hopefully they'll have that in the future but not sure why they don't already. I don't like the trend toward simpler UI's in general (not just Tesla). They think simpler is better. It's not. You know what's better? Better. But that's hard to do whereas simple is easy.

 

[skilly]

how about a description in the read me notes of the new version. I have the same warning after an 80% charge - there was no warning prior to the update. why not just a warning on start up across the screen that says - "warning due to (charging limit; cold; etc) the capacity of regen braking has been greatly reduced. Please use caution when driving under this condition."

 

[AmpedRealtor]

How would it affect you knowing that it's somewhere between 0-50kW (likely around 30kW) as compared to knowing it's exactly at 25.3kW?

It would help me drive more efficiently knowing where that line is, because it would inform me when to release my brake versus when full regen is available. You may not need this, but I utilize this often because I drive for efficiency. I'm very happy that I have a Classic car and have not lost this aspect of my display interface. Also, I have come to appreciate all of the details my Classic display offers. I like details. I'm glad I haven't lost my display like the AP cars. I have come to appreciate all of the information the display provides and I don't appreciate having that information taken away for no reason.

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I'm just puzzled by the willingness to accept less information on these screens. It would be like calibrating the speedometer with just a line, but no actual numbers. Sure you could "figure out" how fast you're going by the length of the line eventually... but why?

Because for some people, Tesla can do no wrong. I judge on a different scale.

 

[Max*]

It would help me drive more efficiently knowing where that line is, because it would inform me when to release my brake versus when full regen is available.

That line is always visible. And it changes depending on how much regen you have available. It's not a static line. So, again, how would it help you knowing that you have about 30kW or 23.5kW available?

You may not need this, but I utilize this often because I drive for efficiency. I'm very happy that I have a Classic car and have not lost this aspect of my display interface.

See above. You have misinformation or a misunderstanding of how it works. The line is not static. If I had a static indicator "Limited Regen" without even giving me a ballpark as to how limited it is, I would 100% agree with you. But from a quick glance I can tell if it's somewhere around 30kw, or somewhere around 50kw, I can easily adjust my driving.

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I could be mistaken, but weren't the regen limits just 15, 30, and 45?

You might be right, this is my first winter with the car, and I've only seen them after I charged to high SoC on v6.2. Now on v7, I'm seeing them due to the cold.

 

[arg]

You might be right, this is my first winter with the car, and I've only seen them after I charged to high SoC on v6.2. Now on v7, I'm seeing them due to the cold.

I have a pre-AP Model S, and my perception is that I am seeing the low-temperature regen limit at a higher temp than with last year's software.

It's always difficult to be certain, as battery temperature lags ambient temperature (specially where I usually have the car parked, outdoors but shaded by the house if the sun comes out), but last year I was fairly convinced that the first stage of regen limit came in at +10C. This year I have seen it on a couple of mornings when I didn't think the overnight temperature had dipped that low.

Maybe I have it wrong - need more data to be sure.

 

[mknox]

I have a pre-AP Model S, and my perception is that I am seeing the low-temperature regen limit at a higher temp than with last year's software.

Yes, I believe I'm seeing that too.

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I could be mistaken, but weren't the regen limits just 15, 30, and 45?

I don't think so. I've seen it at all kinds of different levels and watched as it slowly creeps its way back up to 60 kW then disappears. Now this was with pre v7 firmware, so we'll see how it goes this winter.

 

[ChrisMason]

Is it possible to manually pre-condition the battery temperature while plugged in? My schedule is not regular enough for the auto pre-conditioning.

I actually think that I have been leaving the garage, not seeing the yellow dashed line and then having it show up about 5 minutes down the road. I have a quite steep little hill about 1 minute from the house as well as a much longer downhill at 5 minutes. Pretty sure the yellow is not always showing up on the close short hill but then is there for the big hill.

I test drove the Audi A3 e-Tron recently and it does not start regen until you touch the brakes. (the representative along for the street drive said it was not configurable but I never had a chance to check for myself). Anyway, it just did not feel right. I want my regen when I let off the gas! That is part of how I drive now.

 

[Andyw2100]

Is it possible to manually pre-condition the battery temperature while plugged in? My schedule is not regular enough for the auto pre-conditioning.

That is not something that is currently possible, though it is a feature many people want.

I started a thread with a poll on this feature, and have also written to Tesla a couple of times:

Would you use battery heating if it were available?

I actually think that I have been leaving the garage, not seeing the yellow dashed line and then having it show up about 5 minutes down the road. I have a quite steep little hill about 1 minute from the house as well as a much longer downhill at 5 minutes. Pretty sure the yellow is not always showing up on the close short hill but then is there for the big hill.

I test drove the Audi A3 e-Tron recently and it does not start regen until you touch the brakes. (the representative along for the street drive said it was not configurable but I never had a chance to check for myself). Anyway, it just did not feel right. I want my regen when I let off the gas! That is part of how I drive now.

Are you charging to 100% or close to it?

You will see a regen limit when at or near 100% battery capacity because the battery can't accept any more power, so the regen has to be limited.

Unless you are driving out into significantly colder temperatures, the above seems more likely than that you are starting out without a limit, and then getting a limit imposed due to a suddenly colder battery pack.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

That line is always visible. And it changes depending on how much regen you have available. It's not a static line. So, again, how would it help you knowing that you have about 30kW or 23.5kW available?

Why does it bug you so much that I find it helpful?

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See above. You have misinformation or a misunderstanding of how it works. The line is not static. If I had a static indicator "Limited Regen" without even giving me a ballpark as to how limited it is, I would 100% agree with you. But from a quick glance I can tell if it's somewhere around 30kw, or somewhere around 50kw, I can easily adjust my driving.

Of course it's not static. Knowing where that line is tells me how early to let up on the go pedal. It's just something that I have grown accustomed to that I find useful and that informs certain aspects of how I drive. Again, why does the fact that I appreciate the added information bother you?

You probably have the new display with less information which you appreciate. That's fantastic for you. I have the pre-AP display and love that the information was not taken away. That's fantastic for me. We are both happy, then, aren't we?

 

[brianman]

Is it possible to manually pre-condition the battery temperature while plugged in? My schedule is not regular enough for the auto pre-conditioning.

That is not something that is currently possible, though it is a feature many people want.

"Max Battery Power" accomplishes this, no?

http://teslaforum.dk/ow_userfiles/plugins/base/1393-preparing.jpg

 

[Andyw2100]

"Max Battery Power" accomplishes this, no?

I don't think so, for a few reasons.

For starters, as far as I know once you start the Max Battery Power option there's no way to stop it. So the battery is going to keep heating until it reaches that Max Battery Power option heat, which is, presumably, quite a bit higher than the level required to just not have a regen limit. So that's the first problem with it, since you'd be heating the battery far further than necessary, and very possibly with an additional cost being some battery degradation, since the release notes warn against using the Max Battery Power option too often.

Another potential problem is I'm not sure if that option even functions when the car isn't running, but the first issue is certainly more of an issue.

I did, in my most recent letter to Tesla on this subject, point out that now that they had provided a way to heat the pack through the user interface with the Max Battery Power option, that it should be even easier for them to provide a way to do the same for regenerative braking limit elimination purposes.

Would you use battery heating if it were available? - Page 8

I just sent the following letter to [email protected]:


--
October 27, 2015

Dear Tesla Technical Support Specialist,

I am writing in response to Mr. Musk’s recent tweet, seeking input on desired features and functionality improvements in version 7.1 of the Tesla firmware. I trust that you will pass this along to the appropriate department.

I first wrote to Tesla requesting a battery preheating option in February of this year. Those of us that live in cold climates often have to start our drives with regenerative braking limited. If we were able to preheat the battery, we could avoid this regen limit, and the car would provide a more consistent regenerative braking experience.

One thing many owners in cold climates do is attempt to time our nightly charges such that they finish shortly before we need to leave in the morning, so that the battery is still warm from charging. There are difficulties that this presents, and sometimes it just isn’t possible, but even when it is possible, this won’t completely eliminate the regen limit in very cold climates.

Many of us will heat our cabins, in an attempt to partially heat the pack, and somewhat reduce the regen limit. But to the extent that we may not even want the cabin heated (or heated that long), this is wasteful. Also if we have range mode enabled, heating the cabin won’t heat the battery pack. Since many of us with Ds drive with range mode enabled all the time, to maximize the benefits of torque sleep, this means we need to remember to turn range mode off and on when arriving home and leaving, just so that we can preheat the pack and reduce the regen limit. Also because we will be enabling range mode again before we begin our drives, the regen limit will last for quite a while, since no energy will be wasted heating the pack.

For all these reasons an option to heat the battery pack would be very beneficial. We would use it most while on shore power, but I expect it would also be used at times while on battery power, by those that simply do not want to start a drive with regenerative braking limited. Naturally the option to preheat the traction pack would be most useful if it could be controlled remotely, via the iPhone and Android apps.

In the recently released version 7 of the firmware, Tesla introduced the Max Battery Power option, which heats the traction pack so that the car may perform at its very best, perhaps shaving a few tenths of a second off its 0-60 and quarter mile times. Providing a traction pack heating option to eliminate the regenerative braking limit would, in my opinion, most certainly have broader appeal and be of more practical use. As evidence of this, I’d like to direct you to a poll that I started on the Tesla Motors Club forums shortly after writing you about this issue in February. That poll is available here:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-you-use-battery-heating-if-it-were-available

You will see that as of today, 186 people responded to say that they would use battery preheating if it were available, and another 20 said that while they wouldn’t use it themselves, they recognize the need for it and believe Tesla should make it available for those owners that want it. Only ten people responded to say they didn’t see a need for it at all. Of the 186 people who said they would use battery preheating if it were available, 122 of these people said they would use it very often.

It is clear that Tesla owners want this feature. Please give it to us in version 7.1

Thanks very much.

 

[brianman]

For starters, as far as I know once you start the Max Battery Power option there's no way to stop it.

Incorrect. When you enable it, the button turns blue. If you touch the same button, it turns grey to indicate the action is cancelled.

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Another potential problem is I'm not sure if that option even functions when the car isn't running

"Running" is a word with multiple definitions w/r/t Model S even on this forum so I won't try to answer that. I will say that the feature will work even while charging at a Supercharger (at least in my car).

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So the battery is going to keep heating until it reaches that Max Battery Power option heat, which is, presumably, quite a bit higher than the level required to just not have a regen limit. So that's the first problem with it, since you'd be heating the battery far further than necessary, ...

Sounds like an opportunity for some testing to see if you can ballpark how much time is needed (roughly) to get to the "regen available" temperature, at which point you turn off the feature.

 

[Andyw2100]

Incorrect. When you enable it, the button turns blue. If you touch the same button, it turns grey to indicate the action is cancelled.

"Running" is a word with multiple definitions w/r/t Model S even on this forum so I won't try to answer that. I will say that the feature will work even while charging at a Supercharger (at least in my car).

Sounds like an opportunity for some testing to see if you can ballpark how much time is needed (roughly) to get to the "regen available" temperature, at which point you turn off the feature.

So this is all excellent information.

Based on this, one might be able to use that feature to eliminate the regen limit, with some caveats. For one, you'd be guessing when to stop, and if you went too far you run the risk of the battery degradation Tesla warns about. Also, we don't know if this particular method of heating the pack may be doing it in a different way, and perhaps a way that is "harsher" to the pack than just the normal, "gentler" method of pack heating.

Personally, my choice would be to deal with the regen limits the way I have been rather than to experiment with the Max Battery Power option, though I expect it is entirely possible the Max Battery Power option can be used to achieve the same goal.

But more importantly, it would be so simple for Tesla to provide the option for us. I have to think more people would use the option to eliminate the regenerative braking limit more often than the option will be used to gain a couple of tenths of a second when launching, particularly if it can be enabled via the app.

 

[green1]

It's also not an option for those of us with a "lowly" P85+...