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Newbie question on range and Supercharger etiquette.

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Aviator, May 25, 2016.

  1. Aviator

    Aviator Member

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    Hi,

    I don't have my MS yet, but hope to be the proud owner for a P85D as soon as one comes along in the spec that I want. I have 2 questions that I hope you more experienced owners can help with:

    1) Driven sensibly with appropriate settings, what's the realistic 'long' range on a fully charged P85D? I appreciate that there are a lot of factors that determine this, but I'm just trying to get a feel for how realistic the stats quoted by Tesla are.

    2) My concern on long trips is arriving at a charging station (Supercharger or other) and finding no bays available. How common is this and, on average, how long do people tend to stay connected to a charger when out and about?

    Thanks,
    Dom.
     
  2. tnt1971

    tnt1971 Member

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    I have an 85D and I took delivery in early March. I have about 3,500 miles on my car, and I have taken a few 2-3 hour road trips and used superchargers about 5-6 times.

    On question 1, it all depends on how you drive and temperature. The wh/mile is the key indication. On that car you will need about 300 to get the rated range. If that number is less, you will get more than rated, more and you will get less. At 65 in 50-80 degree temperatures, it is very easy to get rated range. In fact, in normal traffic driving and and less than 60mph, I frequently get 270 or so. I have not had my car in real cold yet, but there were a few 40 degree mornings where I saw the number go up to about 350 wh/mile with normal driving and the heat on. In other words, expect much less in the cold. The usable battery is about 80 kWh, which is 80,000 wH. Divide the latter number by the wh/mile, and you get the range. Notice the 290 wh/mile gives about 275 miles, which is real close to the rated range of the car.

    As far as the superchargers, I have only seen them full at two locations. One was the DE one on 95, and they have since expanded it from 4 stalls to 12. That was a real hot one. Also, the delivery center in Syosset, NY, which is right by my home, is almost always full during business hours. However, if you go in there they will move a car for you, usually, as I understand it. The other superchargers I have visited typically have 1-2 other cars there with 6-8 total bays, and don't forget they are expanding rapidly.

    Hope this helps.
     
  3. mikeash

    mikeash Active Member

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    #3 mikeash, May 25, 2016
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
    Welcome!

    The official range is not too far off, in my experience (driving a RWD 85), depending on where and how you drive. Driving 80MPH up and down hills, expect to see range quite a bit worse than quoted. Driving 60MPH on level ground and you'll do better than the official numbers.

    If you haven't already, visit evtripplanner.com and try out some example trips there. That will calculate, pretty accurately, the kWh and rated miles used for a drive. "Rated miles" are what you use in terms of the official range. If your trip is 100 actual miles and you use 130 rated miles, for example, then you're 30% less efficient than the official numbers would indicate.

    Supercharger crowding only really seems to be a problem in California. My experience has been like @tnt1971's: Newark, DE was crowded before the upgrade, everywhere else has had plentiful open stalls. The UK may be different!

    Edit: I forgot that the official European range numbers are far more optimistic than the US numbers. The European test cycle is a lot more generous, so your numbers look a lot better. Of course, it's basically the same car, so you don't actually go any farther! For comparison purposes, the official US range for my 85 is 265 miles, and for typical long trips I'd say I achieve something close to that, maybe 10% less. The official US range for the P85D is something like 257 miles.
     
  4. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Member

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    There's not one answer to that question. There are hundreds of Superchargers in several different states/countries. They are all different for those local areas. I see that you are in the UK, so you would be much better off asking that question in the regional UK section of this forum about several specific Superchargers near you.

    In the U.S., that is incredibly widely varying because the population density is so uneven in different areas. If you are in Kansas, the answer would be "They are always empty." If you were in the Los Angeles or San Francisco area, the answer would be "They are frequently full."
     
  5. Aviator

    Aviator Member

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    Thanks for the feedback everyone...very helpful to an EV newbie like me :)
     
  6. EVie'sDad

    EVie'sDad Member

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    If driven more conservatively (and using assistance such as range mode and Autosteer+TACC), some owners have reportedly been able to drive upwards of 500 miles on a single full charge, but getting that requires patience and fortitude to avoid main highways, which I admit would be excruciatingly long to complete such a journey. On the otherhand, driven sensibly, the car will easily reach it's rated range, and generally is more efficient with range mode enabled at freeway speeds since that turns off one of the dual motors, thus saving energy. Your most costly energy drains will be accellerating and braking (with low or no regen), using the AC, and lights/windshield wipers.

    As far as Supercharger stalls being fully occupied, I have only been to two that in the past seven months were full, and had to wait for a period of less than 10 minutes to plug in. I suspect some days (weekends) and regions of higher density tesla owners (a.k.a. california) may have a greater likihood of encountering delays, but the supercharger network is more than adequate for the number of cars on the road today as long as you plan your trips and time the charging at superchargers to be off-peak times. Most of the time a stall is always available, and in two years tesla says it will have doubled the number of superchargers available, as well as quadruple the number of destination chargers.
     
  7. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Member

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    Well, I think this is a little incomplete or misleading. The energy use factors in order and magnitude are:


    (1) Moving the car—by far the biggest. Speed has the most impact.
    (2) Heat—Can be pretty significant.
    (3)
    (4)
    (5) A/C—Can still be a little bit noticeable, but is far less than heating.
    (6)
    (7)

    (53) Everything else—All of the accessories are completely unnoticeable amounts of energy usage compared to the big stuff above.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. mikeash

    mikeash Active Member

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    Definitely don't need to worry about lights and such. I believe the lights are about 100W. If you left them on for 24 hours straight, you'd use 2400Wh of energy, or roughly eight miles of range.
     
  9. cpa

    cpa Member

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    Weather can also take its toll on range. You don't have to worry about hot days (>100) in the UK, but you might have strong headwinds or crosswinds or heavy rain/wet pavement that can increase your wh/mile by as much as one-third. (I have personal knowledge of this!)

    Also at Superchargers, the stalls are paired (1A --> 1B; 2A ---> 2B). When you arrive at a Supercharger, try to avoid plugging into a stall pairing where someone else is plugged in. The pairings share 135kW between them, and the first to plug in gets the maximum rate, whilst the second to plug in gets sloppy seconds. As the charge to the first one tapers, the second one increases.

    There is no need to charge to "full," unless your destination is at the upper boundary of 100% range. The time it takes to charge from 90% to 100% can take (from memory here) 20 minutes or so. If your destination is 145 miles away, road conditions and weather are "normal," you should charge enough to give you a personally comfortable buffer--maybe 185-200. (We need to change our thinking from fill 'er up at a petrol station to give me enough plus a little extra!)
     
  10. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    1) Speed, wind, and cold make the biggest difference. There is a trip graph on the screen that can be used to see how you are doing compared to the estimate. If it shows you're using more, just slow down. FWIW, I have averaged between 280-320 miles on a charge (this is using the estimated usable capacity of the pack--estimates vary--divided by the Wh/mi, not that I've actually ran a pack from 100% to 0%).

    2) I have yet to have a wait to charge at a Supercharger (70K miles about 50% trip miles). Last week's trip had ten SC stops and I saw two other Teslas charging during the entire trip.
     
  11. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    Not true at all. Speed is the biggest energy drain. Heating has a big impact but AC not nearly as much. Lights and windshield wipers, etc. are irrelevant.
     
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  12. EVie'sDad

    EVie'sDad Member

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    thank you all for the corrections, it is speed and moving faster and slower using brakes and wind resistance and elevation changes that will more greatly impact energy use and thus range. Heating and lights are less, but AC will drain more especially if Range mode is not used. Use seat heaters which consume less energy than blowing warming air when possible. Also preheating and checking the car via connecting over the mobile app frequently can also increase battery drain (as the car goes into long term sleep mode if left >24 hours parked and off, the app wakes it up and interrupts that energy saving sleep mode).

    But if safety requires wipers, lights, A/C to defrost windows, by all means use them, just reduce your speed 5 to 10 mph to compensate for that additional load, then you should be fine. I usually charge up to 90 percent on long trips and do so at each supercharger I stop at. It is not important how fast I get there, but that I get there with enough charge to return to a different charger if the intended destination or SPC is not accessible or opertational. I will get there and have almost completely eliminated range anxiety.
     
  13. ZBB

    ZBB Emperor

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    #13 ZBB, May 25, 2016
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
    I second the EVTripPlanner.com recommendation.

    Go play with some routes on it -- put in trips you are familiar with. Play with the temp settings -- be realistic with the settings. Play with the speed factor (which is a multiplier against googles reported speed on the route -- so 1.0 means average traffic speed, 1.1 means 10% faster -- I normally plan as 1.1, but drive only 5mph over the posted limit and that usually gives me good results when driving the route), and then look at the weather variation tab to see what wind and temp changes do.

    Should be a big help to understand what the realistic range is.

    Also, keep in mind that ICEs also are impacted by the same factors. But even the 90 battery size only carries the equivalent energy of just over 3 gallons of gas -- keep that in mind when you can easily drive 200+ miles and not worry about running out of juice!

    Edit: stop worrying about the lights and wipers. They have nearly a zero impact on range and run off the separate 12V battery (which is topped up from the main pack -- but it's a relative minuscule impact

    However,, the HVAC system can impact range, especially if the resistive heater is running on a cold day. But pre-heat the car before you go (while plugged in), and the heat pump can normally keep up ok (the heat pump is variable speed and when it's running at a lower speed, it barely impacts range). Similarly, cooling the car down on hot day can use a couple miles of range until the cabin is cool, but when the heat pump compressor slows down, it's not noticeable, the only time I've seen ongoing energy use to cool the car is when temps are above 110F -- and that uses more energy to keep the batter cool also...
     
    • Informative x 1
  14. tnt1971

    tnt1971 Member

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    Lights are all LEDs. I would be shocked if they used anywhere near 100W. Probably more like 20-30.
     
  15. lklundin

    lklundin Member

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    Considering that
    a) the solution to range anxiety is better information (per Elon Musk [*]),
    b) Tesla Motors has shown a strong performance in software solutions for their cars, and
    c) all Tesla cars are networked

    I think the following information should be available in real-time to a Tesla car:
    1) Number of free stalls on any SC within range,
    2) When that number is zero, the number of Tesla cars waiting at the SC and the estimated wait time for a new arrival,
    3) When Tesla Motors manages to make their navigation system work well enough that it becomes popular for the users to include SC stops in their planned route, it should even become possible to predict when other Tesla cars will arrive at the various SCs and thus estimate the wait time at the moment you are predicted to arrive at your next SC.

    Given the actual (and predicted) charging load on the SC, it should actually be possible to provide an estimate of the available charging power available to you when you arrive, e.g. for each SC in range a graph that shows the amount of energy (kWh) that you can expect to add to your SoC as a function of time waited+charged there.

    Your navigation system could rank different SCs according to this.

    With this kind of information you can better decide which SC to drive to and also how long you should make your charging stop
    (maybe just a short stop to get enough range to get to a non-loaded SC, or a longer stop to really charge).

    [*] Elon Musk: Tesla Model S 'Ends Range Anxiety' With Smart Navigation, Trip Planner
     
  16. NOLA_Mike

    NOLA_Mike Active Member

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    The headlamps on my P85D are Xenon. I believe (in the US) they are rated at 35W each - that's 70W just for the headlamps. Counting everything else that comes on when the lights come on (tail lamps, running lamps, interiour dash and ambient lighting, etc.) I would think 100W is probably a decent assumption.
     
  17. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    No, you do not need to reduce speed by 5-10 mph to compensate for wipers or lights or AC to defrost windows.
     
    • Informative x 1
  18. DCGOO

    DCGOO Member

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    There are tools on board that are pretty accurate. The energy graph on the big screen continuously updates the estimated range, based on your last 30, 15 or 5 miles. As long as that number is higher that the distance to your destination, you are golden. If there are significant hills in between, that will be a factor. But you know it ahead of time.

    I needed to make a 120 mile trip home last weekend. I only had a destination charger available, so I *guessed* I needed to be at 60% to make it. The Nav estimated I would have 14% available upon arrival. I pulled in to my garage and had 15% left. It is really pretty close. The car is also pretty good about warning you if you are pushing the limits.
     
  19. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Right, it takes 10 kW to 15 kW to power the car at causing speeds. Everything else but heat is trivial by comparison.
     
  20. Gremlin

    Gremlin Member

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    The only time I have seen a Supercharger full on the east coast is during one of our Tesla RoadTrip (www.telsaroadtrip.org) gatherings. Last year at Ocean City owners were doing 20 min charges rotations at the Salisbury, Supercharger and the hotel was 1/8 mile away (first day). Helps to have charging Ambassadors at the final destination. At Glen Allen I was parked for 1 hour (going down) which was over kill, (wasn't sure of the Kings Mill offering), we ate at restaurant then moved the car after eating. There was no issue at the Glen Allen supercharger after the event was over (150+ attendance).

    The proper etiquette is to move the car once it's reached the desired level to reach the next charger. I generally leap frog superchargers and charge by time every 2.5 hours (need a break anyhow). Winter it depends and the elevation changes : p. On peek periods like this holiday weekend I follow the 30 mins notification Tesla has posted ( e.g., Norfolk supercharger visit last week). Parking in a supercharger spot or any EV charging spot simply to park and not charge is bad EV etiquette. Hate when folks do that at Dulles Airport.

    There is an app called SuperchargerQR (iTunes) that I use. It generates a QR code that I place on the windshield. If someone needs a charge they scan the QR code to contact me I'll move the car. No one has ever contacted me yet. When at Level 2 charges I bought sticker on adapter that has cell number for someone to contact me.

    Personally if an individual has a plug in car like the Porsche Panamera or Prius that get 13 miles best on the battery why even bother? I wish they wouldn't take up the limited off beaten supercharger spots. Waist of a resource in my humble opinion. Volts, Leafs, i3 okay different story.
     

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