As a Leaf owner I can attest that you can go farther than you think in a Leaf (even without an ICE rental for longer trips). For this reason I'm confident that as people learn to drive Model S they will be able to attain much higher ranges per charge than they think if they wish to. There are several tricks to improving range in an EV without relying on hypermiling techniques, the biggest of which is to just slow down. Move over to the right lane, relax, take an extra few minutes to reach your destination and tack on a significant number of extra miles.
-
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Nissan Leaf
- Thread starter efusco
- Start date
I am buying the PERFORMANCE Model S. You will never see me slowing down.. or moving into the right lane!
Great advice. I'm still all ICE but I have begun adjusting my driving habits in anticipation of the S. I've always been a 5-mph-over but not really aggressive driver. Even that gets me passed by 90% of traffic on my commute outside NYC. I have been focusing on two modifications to my driving. First, take the foot of the accelerator well in advance of needing to slow down or stop; I want to take full advantage of regen in the S.
Second, as you suggest, I have become a 5-mph-under driver who spends most of his time in the right lane. Just these two techniques have increased my gas mileage by a consistent 20%. Somewhat unexpectedly, it makes me much more relaxed, not having to worry about the BMW a-hole passing me on the right at 90 mph (yes, I've been one too).
Yeah, same here. I took a 64 mile trip in my Leaf last week and had 41.6% battery capacity remaining when I arrived. That corresponds to a range of ~110 miles. I didn't hypermile, used CC a lot and followed the speed limits. I also had to do some overtaking as I caught up to some cars going slower than the limit. I'm quite happy with that result
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Unfortunately with the hot climate battery capacity loss issues that are showing up Nissan is going to need a lot more than a few free rentals to boost sales. They need a real solution to this, now.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
The battery issues with the LEAF are discouraging, but honestly, there's not much Nissan can do at this point. They are not going to change out the battery packs in existing cars with new and improved ones (that don't yet exist anyway) or retrofit some type of temperature management system to existing cars. Anything less than those two options will just be smoke blown up the current owner's posterior.
Unfortunately, every nuance currently from Nissan seems to highlight that every degradation is "normal", and specifically not warranteed, and if it isn't "normal", then the operator abused the car. If I were betting on the outcome, I'd say the middle ground would be what GM offered with the Volt; you can turn in the LEAF for another Nissan car.
The LEAF community has one owner who claims to be the "official liaison to Nissan North America" who apparently worked in the auto business and has Nissan execs on speed dial. If you want an insight what he discusses with them, enjoy these posting by this "leader":
1. "So far, all of the posts on this subject are speculation, hearsay, innuendo, and opinion."
2. "In reading through all the cases, I really don't see a problem"
3. "I have to believe that if there was an issue, it would have been detected and solved by now"
4. This is just a problem with "several vocal individuals."
5. There is so much confidence, he agreed to swap his battery!!! >>> "sure, come on by, and we will put the cars up on blocks and switch them out."
6. There are as many cars with reduced capacity as there are with ">>excess<< capacity and they are both edge cases". I sure as heck haven't seen a mention of that >>excess<< case(s) !!!!
7. "If there is an actual issue with a customer's battery, then it will be a simple routine warranty repair."
8. This is just "battery FUD that is concentrated in some posts... Kuddos to Nissan for a job well done."
9. Hey, it's only "17 cars out of a population of 25000 is .00068.... or in layman's terms, an edge case."
10. "for the 0.00074074074074 of LEAF owners..... investigate the myriad of options other than complaining to get satisfaction for your transportation needs."
11. Still no problem; just charge more!!! "'the only complaint being that they have to be "filled-up" more often"
12. "Of the fewer than 10 posters that make up the the vast majority of the posts in the 148+ pages of this thread, I'm probably the most rationale one of the bunch."
13. It's a little battery problem because "in the larger scheme of things this is just a fart in the breeze."
14. "8 or so posters that have been the key proponents of this... with some interpretative data that they have been able to glean from some homebrew devices". Hey, Phil, when will you have my homebrew device ready?
15. And then the insults got more pronounced... "Nothing smells right when you don't have a sense of smell". And then there's: "
One of the sure signs of dementia is paranoia and being convinced that everything smells bad."
16. All of the previous statements are because "I have a deeper understanding of how failure analysis in the automotive industry works."
17. So, it might be a software problem... "What if this whole thing is just a SW bug that is not accurately reporting the capacity of the battery?" A bit later, that was upgraded to, "reputable highly-placed sources suggest that a software bug". Naturally, no data to support this, or any other claim.
18. Some very specific and detailed data from most detailed person on the forum is just tossed aside with... "your methodology does not support your conclusions". This is from somebody that really hasn't provided ANY data.
19. Another "theory" with no data to support it (nor was any offered), "only those cars that have been driven in a severe and high-mileage mode trigger the condition."
20. The best for last, as this post is an all time classic!!! "very vocal and seemingly hysterical schizophrenic ADD owners ... they don't represent the vast majority of LEAF owners.... for whatever reason are unable to deal with the situation and would rather freak out. Speculation is rampant, and facts are few... fan the flames of discontent in a very trollish manner... for many that is not good enough and demand immediate satisfaction... Other than assigning wet nurses to the most vocal and impatient of those that are dissatisfied, it is hard to say what more than can be done."
- - - Updated - - -
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&p=220120#p220120
*******************************
Here's a summary of the issues:
November 2011 - the first known Nissan LEAF had it's battery pack replaced when an owner in the Phoenix area reported a missing battery capacity bar on the dash instrument and reduced range. He is currently (August 2012) operating his vehicle on the second battery that is also degraded. He wishes to get out of his lease now. He has now reported that his LEAF was returned to Nissan August 29, 2012.
April 2012 - another Phoenix area LEAF driver reported the same issues.
Since then, dozens have reported on this forum the loss of range / autonomy and/or battery capacity. Many have reported to Nissan at 877-NO-GAS-EV (1-877-664-2738) and been given a "case number" concerning the issue. Most of these reports are currently LEAF's from extremely hot parts of the USA, namely Arizona and Texas. However, there are now reports from other areas.
July 24, 2012 - Carla Bailo, Senior Vice President, Research & Development, Nissan Americas sends an undated open letter to LEAF owners, and the world, about their commitment to address these issues. This letter is not present on Nissan’s main news site, where corporate news items are usually posted. Several forum readers have privately suggested that our poster "OrientExpress" actually penned this letter, as a way to "protect" Nissan from bad press.
Nissan took between 6 and 11 LEAFs (Nissan does not officially disclose the full number, thought to be 11, however only 6 are known on the forum) with significant capacity loss to their Casa Grande testing facility in Arizona.
August 2012 - Nissan Motor Co. said it’s hiring the senior auto reviewer at Consumer Reports magazine to be the carmaker’s new executive adviser on vehicle quality. David Champion will work at Nissan’s vehicle testing center in Stanfield, Arizona, where Nissan tests the LEAF for high temperature environments, among other things.
August 23, 2012 - Nissan sends out a survey to owners asking, among other things, how much range loss is acceptable.
September 2012 - Awaiting official word from Nissan as to the results of their studies, and their intentions going forward. Many have expressed concern that if the results are "everything is normal" and try to "explain things away", aka "whitewashing", that those affected owners will then have the resolve to move forward with more robust methods to address these issues.
********************************
Why Did Nissan Develop an EV Battery? "A battery that can control its heating without a cooling mechanism is also longer lasting, since the biggest cause of a battery's lifetime being shortened is overheating."
A recent study by Pikes Research with U.S. Department of Energy data shows, lithium ion batteries (like those in the LEAF) exposed to hotter average temperatures lose their ability to store energy; the hotter the temperature the faster they lose their storing ability. So BEV owners in Phoenix will likely be looking to replace their batteries faster than owners living where the thermometer doesn’t often reach 110°F.
Nissan specifically DOES NOT WARRANTY BATTERY DEGRADATION (capacity losses), however, changes to range / autonomy are not specified as a result of battery capacity losses. Nissan's sister company, Renault, does warranty the battery for 75% capacity with a virtually identical battery of four AESC cells per each of 48 modules. General Motors also offers this protection with a far more robust Volt battery pack, mostly because there are emission control considerations (the gasoline/petrol engine will run more if the battery degrades). NOTE: Volt battery uses about 60% of capacity, LEAF uses 93%. Volt battery is liquid cooled, LEAF has no battery cooling.
“Thermal management of lithium-ion battery systems is critical to the success of all-electric vehicles because extreme temperatures can affect performance, reliability, safety and durability,” says a Ford press release.
“Extreme temperatures impact a battery’s life and performance, making it crucial to have an effective cooling and heating system to regulate temperature for these demanding applications,” said Anand Sankaran, Ford executive technical leader, Energy Storage and HV Systems.
Some owners suggest that the battery degradation is contingent on "Arrhenius Law" formula of double the degradation per 10C rise in temperature. So, a 0C battery has X loss per hour, then a 10C battery has 2X loss per hour, 20C = 4X, etc. Here is a graph of this formula on various US cities.
Some owners are making plans for legal help or class action status. Some Phoenix area attorneys have expressed interest in suing Nissan over these issues. Please PM "opossum" and "Azdre" for more information. At least one LEAF owner received a solicitation from one of the law firms actively looking for clients on these matters. Here is a thread discussing law suit issues.
The forum's most dedicated data collector, and a reduced range Phoenix LEAF owner, has started this thread concerning his data driven findings.
Here's a first hand account by an owner who met with Nissan engineers in May 2010 (well before the car was released) at the Arizona Testing center, "They did admit that the high temperatures reduced the mileage by 10 to 20%."
Some have suggested that this must be a software issue, and further that "high up" Nissan folks think so too, instead of a battery issue (by Nissan's use of 93% of the capacity of the battery, and not using a temperature management system on the LEAF), however another data driven LEAF driver with capacity and range reduction says that his low serial number car (185) with the original firmware went through last summer in Phoenix without issue, and now has capacity / range issues this summer with the same firmware. The same was expressed here.
Some owners have sold their purchased LEAF, only to lease a second LEAF or other EV, as a method to mitigate any impact to value of the vehicle because of battery capacity and range reduction.
Going to a Nissan dealer has thus far resulted in a response of "all is normal" with the battery, regardless of the range / autonomy reduction and/or battery capacity degradation. Also, any battery report conducted at a dealer, and the subsequent results given to a consumer, will likely have "5 of 5 stars" in every category, regardless of the range / autonomy reduction and/or battery capacity degradation.
Please read the comments posted on this "autoblog" website in an article titled "Is the Nissan LEAF Battery Pack under Engineered?". These comments were made almost one year before a single LEAF was produced, and suggests Nissan seriously made a mistake selling the car in hot environments like Phoenix and Texas.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk, in 2009, well before LEAF was released for sale rips on Nissan's battery technology, and says it's "primitive" without a temperature management system. PLease read the comments on this article, also. Very well thought predictions that this would not end well for Nissan, and the greater electric vehicle community.
Naturally, the Nissan legal department made clear the battery capacity is without warrantee, but as we know, consumers have been sold a car in hot places like Phoenix that the manufacturer knew would NOT survive the heat and did NOT tell the consumer of these shortcomings.
Some have suggested that manufacturers should not be allowed to market any other range figure except what a standardized EPA test has determined. Also, to include the effects of local climate on batteries that are without any method to protect from ambient heat.
The US government's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has an presentation from Nissan concerning their theory on how the battery handles heat (see slide 12 of the presentation). While I am not suggesting that this may happen, if the NHTSA orders a vehicle recall for a safety defect, the manufacturer has three legal options for making good on the order. The manufacturer can:
- Repair the vehicle free of charge (this is the usual remedy you see offered for a vehicle defect);
- Replace the vehicle with an identical or similar vehicle that is free of the defect; or
- Refund the purchase price in full minus a reasonable allowance for vehicle depreciation.
*********************************
If you are experiencing reduced range / autonomy issues, and/or your dash battery capacity instrument is missing one or more of its twelve bar segments, here are some suggestions to pursue:
1. Report to Nissan at 877-NO-GAS-EV (1-877-664-2738) and get a "case number" concerning the issue
2. Report to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration "Office of Defects Investigation" and get a Confirmation Number (ODI Number) concerning the issue. Address: 1200 New Jersey Avenue SE, West Building, Washington, DC 20590, 1-888-327-4236 or 1-202-366-0123. Here is a NHTSA presentation about electric vehicle safety from Nissan. Check out slide 12 about heat affects on lithium batteries.
3. Report to Consumer Reports. This can be a little confusing. In fourth line click on Non-Consumer Reports product or services, click again for Share an experience and then click again on Defective but non hazardous.
4. Report to respective Better Business Bureau. Here is Arizona BBB and here is California BBB. The Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc. is at 4200 Wilson Boulevard, Arlington, VA 22203; 1-703-276-0100
5. Report to your State Attorney General’s Office
6. Report to Center for Auto Safety, 1825 Connecticut Ave, NW, Ste. 330, Washington, DC 20009-5708. You may send them a letter sharing your experiences with them. Should they have any information on your particular automobile, they will forward it to you, along with helpful information and advice within 10 days from date of receipt of their letter. They ask, but do not require, a $.60 SASE to help keep their costs down.
*****************************
Here's some options on how to dispose of your car, should it no longer meet your needs, or you are concerned about loss of value concerning loss of range / autonomy. First, you must determine what your end result needs to be:
1. Wait for Nissan to acknowledge there is a problem, devise a plan and implement a fix to your satisfaction.
2. Nissan may take back leases under certain parameters.
3. Sell the car. CarMax has been a good place to start.
3. Use your state's Lemon Law. It may be prudent NOT to address battery capacity, as that is specifically not covered by warranty.
4. Hire legal help for individual (tort) suits.
5. Join a class action suit.
**************************
Nissan Corporate Contacts:
Mark Perry, Director of Product Planning for Nissan North America. On August 3, 2012, he was reported to have said, "We've also been very transparent in making sure people know that battery capacity will degrade in very high heat – for instance, if the cars sit out in 110-degree heat for five hours a day." He was also quoted as saying sometime before January 25, 2010, "We don't need thermal management for the U.S., but we are looking at the technology for Dubai and other locations like that.... We've gone on the record saying that the pack has a 70 to 80 percent capacity after 10 years."
Here are some average temperatures:
........................Dubai............................................Phoenix........
May: avg high 100F avg low 76F......ave high: 95F, average low: 69F
Jun: avg high 103F avg low 81F....... ave high: 104F, average low: 78F
July: avg high 105F avg low 86F.......ave high: 106F, average low: 83F
Aug: avg high 106F avg low 86F......ave high: 104F, average low: 83F
Sept: avg high 102F avg low 81F.....ave high: 100F, average low: 77F
Bradley D. Thacker
Vice President, Total Customer Satisfaction Nissan Americas
Email: [email protected]
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/brad.thacker
Melissa Ortiz
Nissan Arbitration
[email protected]
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=8811388
Anna Naraeva
Nissan North America, Inc.
Escalation Team Supervisor, Consumer Affairs
Phone: 615-725-7376
Fax: 615-967-2559
[email protected]
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Anna-Naraeva/1646221651
**********************************
ARIZONA’S LEMON LAW
- two years or 24,000 miles, whichever is earlier
- a problem with the car that substantially impairs the use and value
- fails to successfully repair the defect after four attempts, or...
- out of service by reason of repair for a cumulative total of 30 or more calendar days
CALIFORNIA’S LEMON LAW
- the lessee or buyer is completely free to choose whether to accept a replacement or a refund
- Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act applies to your warranty period (3 years, 36,000 miles on LEAF in USA)
- does not apply if the problem was caused by abuse; follow the terms of the warranty for maintenance and use
- reasonable number of repair attempts for problems that substantially impair the use, value, or safety of the vehicle
- during the first 18 months / 18,000 miles "Lemon Law" presumes four or more repair attempts, or.....
- vehicle is out of service of more than 30 days since delivery of the vehicle
TEXAS' LEMON LAW
- $35 filing fee is charged for complaints about new vehicles
- Case Advisor to determine whether it meets the jurisdictional requirements of the law
- Administrative Law Ruling
- if unresolved, the State Office of Administrative Hearings (SOAH) has hearing(s)
- consumers must prove to the Administrative Law Judge that their vehicle is a lemon
- manufacturers also have the right to appear and present evidence and argument to the contrary
FLORIDA'S' LEMON LAW
- consumer has an unconditional right to choose a refund rather than a replacement motor vehicle
- "Lemon Law Rights Period" is the first 24 months
- recurring problem not fixed after three attempts, or....
- out of service for repair for 30 cumulative days
- you must complete a specific form provided on the Florida Secretary of State website
- you must submit your information to the proper arbitrator
Unfortunately, every nuance currently from Nissan seems to highlight that every degradation is "normal", and specifically not warranteed, and if it isn't "normal", then the operator abused the car. If I were betting on the outcome, I'd say the middle ground would be what GM offered with the Volt; you can turn in the LEAF for another Nissan car.
The LEAF community has one owner who claims to be the "official liaison to Nissan North America" who apparently worked in the auto business and has Nissan execs on speed dial. If you want an insight what he discusses with them, enjoy these posting by this "leader":
1. "So far, all of the posts on this subject are speculation, hearsay, innuendo, and opinion."
2. "In reading through all the cases, I really don't see a problem"
3. "I have to believe that if there was an issue, it would have been detected and solved by now"
4. This is just a problem with "several vocal individuals."
5. There is so much confidence, he agreed to swap his battery!!! >>> "sure, come on by, and we will put the cars up on blocks and switch them out."
6. There are as many cars with reduced capacity as there are with ">>excess<< capacity and they are both edge cases". I sure as heck haven't seen a mention of that >>excess<< case(s) !!!!
7. "If there is an actual issue with a customer's battery, then it will be a simple routine warranty repair."
8. This is just "battery FUD that is concentrated in some posts... Kuddos to Nissan for a job well done."
9. Hey, it's only "17 cars out of a population of 25000 is .00068.... or in layman's terms, an edge case."
10. "for the 0.00074074074074 of LEAF owners..... investigate the myriad of options other than complaining to get satisfaction for your transportation needs."
11. Still no problem; just charge more!!! "'the only complaint being that they have to be "filled-up" more often"
12. "Of the fewer than 10 posters that make up the the vast majority of the posts in the 148+ pages of this thread, I'm probably the most rationale one of the bunch."
13. It's a little battery problem because "in the larger scheme of things this is just a fart in the breeze."
14. "8 or so posters that have been the key proponents of this... with some interpretative data that they have been able to glean from some homebrew devices". Hey, Phil, when will you have my homebrew device ready?
15. And then the insults got more pronounced... "Nothing smells right when you don't have a sense of smell". And then there's: "
One of the sure signs of dementia is paranoia and being convinced that everything smells bad."
16. All of the previous statements are because "I have a deeper understanding of how failure analysis in the automotive industry works."
17. So, it might be a software problem... "What if this whole thing is just a SW bug that is not accurately reporting the capacity of the battery?" A bit later, that was upgraded to, "reputable highly-placed sources suggest that a software bug". Naturally, no data to support this, or any other claim.
18. Some very specific and detailed data from most detailed person on the forum is just tossed aside with... "your methodology does not support your conclusions". This is from somebody that really hasn't provided ANY data.
19. Another "theory" with no data to support it (nor was any offered), "only those cars that have been driven in a severe and high-mileage mode trigger the condition."
20. The best for last, as this post is an all time classic!!! "very vocal and seemingly hysterical schizophrenic ADD owners ... they don't represent the vast majority of LEAF owners.... for whatever reason are unable to deal with the situation and would rather freak out. Speculation is rampant, and facts are few... fan the flames of discontent in a very trollish manner... for many that is not good enough and demand immediate satisfaction... Other than assigning wet nurses to the most vocal and impatient of those that are dissatisfied, it is hard to say what more than can be done."
- - - Updated - - -
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&p=220120#p220120
*******************************
Here's a summary of the issues:
November 2011 - the first known Nissan LEAF had it's battery pack replaced when an owner in the Phoenix area reported a missing battery capacity bar on the dash instrument and reduced range. He is currently (August 2012) operating his vehicle on the second battery that is also degraded. He wishes to get out of his lease now. He has now reported that his LEAF was returned to Nissan August 29, 2012.
April 2012 - another Phoenix area LEAF driver reported the same issues.
Since then, dozens have reported on this forum the loss of range / autonomy and/or battery capacity. Many have reported to Nissan at 877-NO-GAS-EV (1-877-664-2738) and been given a "case number" concerning the issue. Most of these reports are currently LEAF's from extremely hot parts of the USA, namely Arizona and Texas. However, there are now reports from other areas.
July 24, 2012 - Carla Bailo, Senior Vice President, Research & Development, Nissan Americas sends an undated open letter to LEAF owners, and the world, about their commitment to address these issues. This letter is not present on Nissan’s main news site, where corporate news items are usually posted. Several forum readers have privately suggested that our poster "OrientExpress" actually penned this letter, as a way to "protect" Nissan from bad press.
Nissan took between 6 and 11 LEAFs (Nissan does not officially disclose the full number, thought to be 11, however only 6 are known on the forum) with significant capacity loss to their Casa Grande testing facility in Arizona.
August 2012 - Nissan Motor Co. said it’s hiring the senior auto reviewer at Consumer Reports magazine to be the carmaker’s new executive adviser on vehicle quality. David Champion will work at Nissan’s vehicle testing center in Stanfield, Arizona, where Nissan tests the LEAF for high temperature environments, among other things.
August 23, 2012 - Nissan sends out a survey to owners asking, among other things, how much range loss is acceptable.
September 2012 - Awaiting official word from Nissan as to the results of their studies, and their intentions going forward. Many have expressed concern that if the results are "everything is normal" and try to "explain things away", aka "whitewashing", that those affected owners will then have the resolve to move forward with more robust methods to address these issues.
********************************
Why Did Nissan Develop an EV Battery? "A battery that can control its heating without a cooling mechanism is also longer lasting, since the biggest cause of a battery's lifetime being shortened is overheating."
A recent study by Pikes Research with U.S. Department of Energy data shows, lithium ion batteries (like those in the LEAF) exposed to hotter average temperatures lose their ability to store energy; the hotter the temperature the faster they lose their storing ability. So BEV owners in Phoenix will likely be looking to replace their batteries faster than owners living where the thermometer doesn’t often reach 110°F.
Nissan specifically DOES NOT WARRANTY BATTERY DEGRADATION (capacity losses), however, changes to range / autonomy are not specified as a result of battery capacity losses. Nissan's sister company, Renault, does warranty the battery for 75% capacity with a virtually identical battery of four AESC cells per each of 48 modules. General Motors also offers this protection with a far more robust Volt battery pack, mostly because there are emission control considerations (the gasoline/petrol engine will run more if the battery degrades). NOTE: Volt battery uses about 60% of capacity, LEAF uses 93%. Volt battery is liquid cooled, LEAF has no battery cooling.
“Thermal management of lithium-ion battery systems is critical to the success of all-electric vehicles because extreme temperatures can affect performance, reliability, safety and durability,” says a Ford press release.
“Extreme temperatures impact a battery’s life and performance, making it crucial to have an effective cooling and heating system to regulate temperature for these demanding applications,” said Anand Sankaran, Ford executive technical leader, Energy Storage and HV Systems.
Some owners suggest that the battery degradation is contingent on "Arrhenius Law" formula of double the degradation per 10C rise in temperature. So, a 0C battery has X loss per hour, then a 10C battery has 2X loss per hour, 20C = 4X, etc. Here is a graph of this formula on various US cities.
Some owners are making plans for legal help or class action status. Some Phoenix area attorneys have expressed interest in suing Nissan over these issues. Please PM "opossum" and "Azdre" for more information. At least one LEAF owner received a solicitation from one of the law firms actively looking for clients on these matters. Here is a thread discussing law suit issues.
The forum's most dedicated data collector, and a reduced range Phoenix LEAF owner, has started this thread concerning his data driven findings.
Here's a first hand account by an owner who met with Nissan engineers in May 2010 (well before the car was released) at the Arizona Testing center, "They did admit that the high temperatures reduced the mileage by 10 to 20%."
Some have suggested that this must be a software issue, and further that "high up" Nissan folks think so too, instead of a battery issue (by Nissan's use of 93% of the capacity of the battery, and not using a temperature management system on the LEAF), however another data driven LEAF driver with capacity and range reduction says that his low serial number car (185) with the original firmware went through last summer in Phoenix without issue, and now has capacity / range issues this summer with the same firmware. The same was expressed here.
Some owners have sold their purchased LEAF, only to lease a second LEAF or other EV, as a method to mitigate any impact to value of the vehicle because of battery capacity and range reduction.
Going to a Nissan dealer has thus far resulted in a response of "all is normal" with the battery, regardless of the range / autonomy reduction and/or battery capacity degradation. Also, any battery report conducted at a dealer, and the subsequent results given to a consumer, will likely have "5 of 5 stars" in every category, regardless of the range / autonomy reduction and/or battery capacity degradation.
Please read the comments posted on this "autoblog" website in an article titled "Is the Nissan LEAF Battery Pack under Engineered?". These comments were made almost one year before a single LEAF was produced, and suggests Nissan seriously made a mistake selling the car in hot environments like Phoenix and Texas.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk, in 2009, well before LEAF was released for sale rips on Nissan's battery technology, and says it's "primitive" without a temperature management system. PLease read the comments on this article, also. Very well thought predictions that this would not end well for Nissan, and the greater electric vehicle community.
Naturally, the Nissan legal department made clear the battery capacity is without warrantee, but as we know, consumers have been sold a car in hot places like Phoenix that the manufacturer knew would NOT survive the heat and did NOT tell the consumer of these shortcomings.
Some have suggested that manufacturers should not be allowed to market any other range figure except what a standardized EPA test has determined. Also, to include the effects of local climate on batteries that are without any method to protect from ambient heat.
The US government's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has an presentation from Nissan concerning their theory on how the battery handles heat (see slide 12 of the presentation). While I am not suggesting that this may happen, if the NHTSA orders a vehicle recall for a safety defect, the manufacturer has three legal options for making good on the order. The manufacturer can:
- Repair the vehicle free of charge (this is the usual remedy you see offered for a vehicle defect);
- Replace the vehicle with an identical or similar vehicle that is free of the defect; or
- Refund the purchase price in full minus a reasonable allowance for vehicle depreciation.
*********************************
If you are experiencing reduced range / autonomy issues, and/or your dash battery capacity instrument is missing one or more of its twelve bar segments, here are some suggestions to pursue:
1. Report to Nissan at 877-NO-GAS-EV (1-877-664-2738) and get a "case number" concerning the issue
2. Report to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration "Office of Defects Investigation" and get a Confirmation Number (ODI Number) concerning the issue. Address: 1200 New Jersey Avenue SE, West Building, Washington, DC 20590, 1-888-327-4236 or 1-202-366-0123. Here is a NHTSA presentation about electric vehicle safety from Nissan. Check out slide 12 about heat affects on lithium batteries.
3. Report to Consumer Reports. This can be a little confusing. In fourth line click on Non-Consumer Reports product or services, click again for Share an experience and then click again on Defective but non hazardous.
4. Report to respective Better Business Bureau. Here is Arizona BBB and here is California BBB. The Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc. is at 4200 Wilson Boulevard, Arlington, VA 22203; 1-703-276-0100
5. Report to your State Attorney General’s Office
6. Report to Center for Auto Safety, 1825 Connecticut Ave, NW, Ste. 330, Washington, DC 20009-5708. You may send them a letter sharing your experiences with them. Should they have any information on your particular automobile, they will forward it to you, along with helpful information and advice within 10 days from date of receipt of their letter. They ask, but do not require, a $.60 SASE to help keep their costs down.
*****************************
Here's some options on how to dispose of your car, should it no longer meet your needs, or you are concerned about loss of value concerning loss of range / autonomy. First, you must determine what your end result needs to be:
1. Wait for Nissan to acknowledge there is a problem, devise a plan and implement a fix to your satisfaction.
2. Nissan may take back leases under certain parameters.
3. Sell the car. CarMax has been a good place to start.
3. Use your state's Lemon Law. It may be prudent NOT to address battery capacity, as that is specifically not covered by warranty.
4. Hire legal help for individual (tort) suits.
5. Join a class action suit.
**************************
Nissan Corporate Contacts:
Mark Perry, Director of Product Planning for Nissan North America. On August 3, 2012, he was reported to have said, "We've also been very transparent in making sure people know that battery capacity will degrade in very high heat – for instance, if the cars sit out in 110-degree heat for five hours a day." He was also quoted as saying sometime before January 25, 2010, "We don't need thermal management for the U.S., but we are looking at the technology for Dubai and other locations like that.... We've gone on the record saying that the pack has a 70 to 80 percent capacity after 10 years."
Here are some average temperatures:
........................Dubai............................................Phoenix........
May: avg high 100F avg low 76F......ave high: 95F, average low: 69F
Jun: avg high 103F avg low 81F....... ave high: 104F, average low: 78F
July: avg high 105F avg low 86F.......ave high: 106F, average low: 83F
Aug: avg high 106F avg low 86F......ave high: 104F, average low: 83F
Sept: avg high 102F avg low 81F.....ave high: 100F, average low: 77F
Bradley D. Thacker
Vice President, Total Customer Satisfaction Nissan Americas
Email: [email protected]
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/brad.thacker
Melissa Ortiz
Nissan Arbitration
[email protected]
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=8811388
Anna Naraeva
Nissan North America, Inc.
Escalation Team Supervisor, Consumer Affairs
Phone: 615-725-7376
Fax: 615-967-2559
[email protected]
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Anna-Naraeva/1646221651
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ARIZONA’S LEMON LAW
- two years or 24,000 miles, whichever is earlier
- a problem with the car that substantially impairs the use and value
- fails to successfully repair the defect after four attempts, or...
- out of service by reason of repair for a cumulative total of 30 or more calendar days
CALIFORNIA’S LEMON LAW
- the lessee or buyer is completely free to choose whether to accept a replacement or a refund
- Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act applies to your warranty period (3 years, 36,000 miles on LEAF in USA)
- does not apply if the problem was caused by abuse; follow the terms of the warranty for maintenance and use
- reasonable number of repair attempts for problems that substantially impair the use, value, or safety of the vehicle
- during the first 18 months / 18,000 miles "Lemon Law" presumes four or more repair attempts, or.....
- vehicle is out of service of more than 30 days since delivery of the vehicle
TEXAS' LEMON LAW
- $35 filing fee is charged for complaints about new vehicles
- Case Advisor to determine whether it meets the jurisdictional requirements of the law
- Administrative Law Ruling
- if unresolved, the State Office of Administrative Hearings (SOAH) has hearing(s)
- consumers must prove to the Administrative Law Judge that their vehicle is a lemon
- manufacturers also have the right to appear and present evidence and argument to the contrary
FLORIDA'S' LEMON LAW
- consumer has an unconditional right to choose a refund rather than a replacement motor vehicle
- "Lemon Law Rights Period" is the first 24 months
- recurring problem not fixed after three attempts, or....
- out of service for repair for 30 cumulative days
- you must complete a specific form provided on the Florida Secretary of State website
- you must submit your information to the proper arbitrator
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Doing nothing will probably kill the LEAF. What they need to do at the very least is admit they were wrong about the heat issue and their batteries, offer to buy back the vehicles, and promise that they have new technology that will take care of the issue. I can't think of a reason they can't design a battery pack with better cooling that could bolt in place of the existing one. They could have Tesla design it for them if needed.
Kipernicus
Model S Res#P1440
Thanks for the summary Tony. I have to admit that I haven't been reading MyNissanLeaf very much recently because it's gotten very discouraging reading all the threads about decreased battery capacity. Would have liked to have seen Nissan to take a more proactive approach to dealing with the problem, even if there were /are no easy solutions at this time. While my Leaf is fine and is serving my needs remarkably well, I have the greatest sympathy for our Arizona / Texas brothers and sisters and do hope that Nissan offers some form of recompense for their troubles. If the battery situation can not be retrofitted, I agree that some form of trade in program would seem to be appropriate ...
Maybe it will kill it in hot climates, but the heat issue has no real significance most places. Here in Norway, we had only two days this summer with peak temperature above 25C (77F). My Leaf is close to a year old, 8400 miles, and no degradation whatsoever (still charges to 280 gids on average, sometimes 279 or 281).
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I guess I should specify it could kill the LEAF in the US. Packs in warmer parts of California are degrading as well, and California is the largest EV market, that bad press will probably spread around the rest of the country.
If I were Nissan, I would replace packs as the range degrades past some point for the first 200,000 miles or 15 years, or until they have a fix in which case you apply the fix. There aren't that many out there compared to how many they planned to make and it would send a very positive message. Right now they appear to be doing about the worst thing they can do publicity-wise. I wonder if that's being done at the lower management levels and not being transferred up to the top brass? Wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.
DuncanWatson
Member
A large part of the US experiences tempatures that trigger degradation. I happen to live in an area where it doesn't (PNW) but if I were farther East there are plenty of places with hot summers and cold winters that would not be kind to the Leaf's current battery management system.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
My guess--though of course I am just guessing--is that Nissan is surprised. They did a lot of hot-weather testing, and did not expect to have such degradation. They'd love to tell users how to avoid it, or how to fix it...but they still don't know exactly what the problem is. It is clearly related to heat because it only happens in hot places, but it appears it may be in conjunction with something else because not all hot-weather owners get it and their testing didn't find it.
So I think they are investigating and trying to figure out what that something else is. Then they will be able to decide the best course to take care of existing owners, and for change future cars. I don't think they want to commit to replacing packs if there might be something else they can do (although it is likely that it's too late for some owners, and I agree that they should replace packs for those people...although even then, they probably don't want to do that until they know the same thing won't happen to the next pack).
So I think they are investigating and trying to figure out what that something else is. Then they will be able to decide the best course to take care of existing owners, and for change future cars. I don't think they want to commit to replacing packs if there might be something else they can do (although it is likely that it's too late for some owners, and I agree that they should replace packs for those people...although even then, they probably don't want to do that until they know the same thing won't happen to the next pack).
Wow it's a wee bit cool there. My backyard weather station recorded only 3 days in July with peak temperatures below 25C. And some people think Canada is cold...
Oh, and no significant degradation of my Roadster battery pack. :smile: I haven't heard any complaints from the local Leaf owners either.
Perhaps a lot of their hot weather testing was driving the car constantly on a test track to rack up miles.
(But then you get some airflow under the pack, and average SOC is closer to 50%.)
Perhaps leaving the car parked in a hot garage sitting at 100% SOC most of the time is what is hurting them?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Sounds like you and JRP3 (charging a hot pack) are on the right path toward finding the cause. I expect that Nissan is on the same path, but they should be a few steps ahead.
Perhaps the high nighttime temperatures never allowing cool down, and charging during those hot nights, were not included in Nissan's testing.
GSP
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